<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2008 - Volume 03<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.14 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In the Low Saxon speaking areas of the Netherlands, uvular pronunciation</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
of R has always been seen as an exception, a speech-defect, an affectation</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But there is one interesting exception: the old Hansa towns along the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Yssel river, from North to South: Hasselt, Kampen, Zwolle, Hattum,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Zutphen, Doesburg pronounce their R-s uvularly, unlike the surrounding</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
country side. The same goes for the Low Franconian speaking Hansa cities</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
of Arnhem and Nymegen a bit further South.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Final R isn't usually pronounced in these areas (compare it to British</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
English and Northern German), but in the uvular towns, it is and it</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
effects the vowels into palatals:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
ärm [{R@m] for arm ["ar@m]/[arm]/[a:m]/[a@m] Dutch arm = poor/arm, däör</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
[d9:R] for daor [dO:@] Dutch daar = there, zörg ["z9R@x] for zorg ["zQr@x]/</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
[zQrx]/["zQ@x] Dutch zorg = sorrow/care, kärke ["k{R@k@] for karke</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
["kark@]/["ka:k@]/[ka@k@] Dutch kerk = church.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
May this uvular R in Hansa towns be German influenced? And from what area</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in Germany then?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: LL-L Phonolpgy</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Some time ago Ron had questions about "rolling" the uvular R.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Actually a rolling uvular R is quite common for Belgian Dutch speakers from</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Brussels, Tongeren, ... (towns relatively close to the language border),</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
even Ghent (town with a French speaking bourgeoisie for a long time).</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I found a book today with a brief instruction how to learn and how (not) to</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
pronounce both rR as commonly heard in Belgian Dutch (In the Netherlands</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
they even have a larger variety of "r"s).</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I scanned:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- for the *apico-alveolar r*:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="http://www.euro-support.be/temp/apal.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.euro-support.be/temp/apal.jpg</a><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- for the *uvular R*:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uv.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.euro-support.be/temp/uv.jpg</a><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Ron, pse try exercise nr 30. I'm sure it will work.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
What is listed as "fout" (error) may be heard incidentally as variant.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Both are scanned from:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: consonanten*", Acco,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4030-4, 280 pp.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
The book is not very interesting for learning scientifically about</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
pronounciation. It is more a collection of "*long lists of words*" for each</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
phoneme in combination with other relevant and intentionally choosen</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
phonemes as *exercise material for patients of logopedists*.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
There is a similar publication for vowels:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Greet Huybrechts e.a., "*Articulatie in de praktijk: vocalen en</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
diftongen*",</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Acco, Leuven & Voorburg, zesde druk, 2007, ISBN 978-90-334-4031-1, 123 pp.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Enjoy the gargling,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Roger</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
----------</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: Phonology</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Thanks a lot, Roger!</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I'll practice it. I can already do it but not dry. ;-)</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Here is my translation:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- Gargling with a little water, head tilted back</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- The same exercise without water, perhaps with a little saliva; vocal</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
chords must vibrate</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- Gargling with head tilted back, saying R while bringing head back up</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- R between two vowels: aaRaa, eeRee ...</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- In combination with a back consonant, preferably k: kRaa, kRee ...</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- The gradually omitting the kRaa, kRaa, Raa ..</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
- Practicing the rest of the possible combinations and positions</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
By the way, I think the clearest pronunciation of the trilled uvular r is</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
that of the recording for the Wren translation in Nieuwpoort West Flemish:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/westvlams2.php</a><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Phonology" 2008.06.13 (06) [E]<br></span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi Ron and All,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regarding rhotic English, the modern Standard and the spread of
London or Estuary speech have muddied the waters somewhat. When you
look at most dialects nearly all southern forms (except London and
Standard) sound a medial "r", nearly always an American-style retroflex
one. You'll still hear it in the non-"Essexised" parts of East Anglia,
and again from Oxfordshire all the way across to Devon. Formerly it
occurred in the counties south of London too, Sussex and Kent, though
Estuary has more or less wiped it out.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The change comes at the Midlands, and by Northern England it is
pretty much absent. "Dark" will be something like "daak" as opposed to
"daarrk" in Devon. The far north, e.g Cumbria and NorthumberlandNorth,
don't sound it. Yet when you cross into Scotland, it comes back even
stronger - but trilled this time, not retroflex.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I believe there is a clue in place-names: Danish names occur
throughout the East Midlands and North, but fall off quite sharply into
Scotland (though not exactly in line with the relatively recent modern
border). Rhotic English thus seems to occur in the more "Saxon" or
"Angle" bits, and is lost in the Scandinavian parts. London and
Standard confuse the picture because the Standard is in fact mostly
based on Mediaeval East Midlands forms. That's what Chaucer, and
ultimately the English Court used, because the powerful money-men, the
merchant class, used it as a lingua franca bridging North and South.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">So why would Scandinavians kill off a medial "r" when all modern
Scandinavian languages as far as I know, use it? My pure speculation is
that Danish and English had different medial "r"s, an neither really
heard the other one properly - a bit like English speakers thinking
that Japanese use "r" for "l". So in effect everyone said it "wrong"
and it smeared itself out.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Pure speculation as I say, but I believe the geography stacks up, even if the linguistics doesn't!</p>
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<p>Paul Finlow-Bates</p>
</font><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Phonology<br><br>Thanks, Ingmar and Paul!<br><br>Before I forget to mention it again ... I can pronounce the uvular /r/ (approximant) just fine, using it natively in German. My mother pronounced it, even though her parents both used the apical /r/, her father as a speaker of Mecklenburg Low Saxon and her mother as a speaker of Lower Silesian German (where the apical /r/ is now disappearing) with an Upper Sorbian substratum. My father could only use the apical /r/, which was typical of people of his generation of that place, probably of most of Northern Germany, irrespective of if they grew up speaking Low Saxon or not, because Northern German still had a much stronger Low Saxon substratum then.<br>
<br>What I've been having some problems with is the <i>trilled</i> uvular /r/. You can hear it not only in many Belgian Dutch varieties but also in Walloon, Picard etc., and of course in the Francien varieties of French in the </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Île-de-france. You hear it very clearly for instance in Edit Piaf's songs. And, by the way, it is also used in "Stage German".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ingmar, I definitely don't think the uvular /r/ was spread by the Hanseatic League. We can safely assume that all of Northern Germany used the apical trill. I suspect that most of the spread of the uvular /r/ emanated from the Rhine area and west of it. What I find very interesting is that a good number of Eastern Yiddish dialects have the uvular /r/. This is surprising considering that they are surrounded by East European languages that use the apical /r/. Two possibilities spring to mind: (1) it goes back to the Franco-Rhenish area in which Yiddish began, or (2) it began as a type of <i>daytshmerizm</i>, a German-inspired affectation, in more recent times.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul, thanks for all the interesting information. You have an interesting theory. You wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">So why would Scandinavians kill off a medial "r" when all modern
Scandinavian languages as far as I know, use it? </span><br></div>
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">There is a uvular /r/ "island" -- with apparently no connection to the aforementioned area -- encompassing Denmark and the Scanian part of Southern Sweden, and with it comes non-rhoticism (usually schwa with or without r-coloring for </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">-er</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">-r</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">). Due to Danish rule it spread to the Bergen area of Norway, where, however, non-rhoticism is absent or rare. I don't kn ow if this has any bearing on your theory.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">