<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 23 June 2008 - Volume 05<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">-------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">If viewing this in a web browser, please click on</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page </span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">and switch your browser's character encoding to Unicode.</span><br>=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L Language politics<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> From:
<span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Helge Tietz</span> <span><<a href="mailto:helgetietz@yahoo.com" target="_blank">helgetietz@yahoo.com</a>></span><br>> Subject: LL-L "Language
varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]<br>> He has got a point just as much
as Wenker and Frings have a point. I indeed believe to divide the northern
Rhineland and Limburg into German and Dutch is almost as impossible as it is to
divide Brussels and surroundings into Wallon and Flemish, both exist next to
each other and among each other.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Brussels is about 90 perc. French speaking, when including
immigrants maybe 95 perc. Company headquartes are internally bilingual or
English <strong>during the week</strong>. The Grand-Place is linguistically
international, other area's are virtually <strong>French-only in the
week-end</strong>.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">I do my shopping often downtown in the week-end, and while the
official administative indications are bilingual, it is very difficult to find
someone who understands 5 words of Dutch in the smaller shops. This indicates
also something about the quality of language education in the French
system.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Six border municipalities are Flemish "with facilities", but
these switched to French and one often finds quite often monolingual
French speakers in the shops over there. Some examples from my own recent
experience, all in <strong>Kraainem</strong>:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">In the "Lunch Garden" they didn't know what "dagschotel"
(day's menu) meant, even when it is advertised bilingually in large
capitals "dagschotel - plat du jour" over the head of the servant,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">In the "Brico" they could not explain me where I could
find a "plint" (baseboard) even when it is "plinthe" (with a nazalized "in"
though) in French.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">In the "Carrefour" a lady promoting the use of self-scanners
(for scanning one-self while shopping) could not produce a single word of Dutch,
even not for excusing herself for that.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">This all in the <strong>Flemish</strong> community with
facilities, actually in "Kraainem".</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">It is a law that once French gets in, it pushes away all other
languages. The French speaking people are very kind though, most of
them just speak French and French only. Activities by Flemish
municipalities for protecting the local culture at the outskirts
(Steenokkerzeel, Zaventem, Overijse) are represented as facistic in the
French-language press.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Switching to France:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">A couple of weeks ago it was reported in this list that
the French parliament (the Assemblée Générale) had a sympathetic discussion
about regional languages in Paris. This exceptional cultural laxness has been
condemned and overruled by the French Senat and by the the Académie
française:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff">"<span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">Le 22 mai, lors de l'examen du
projet de révision de </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">la
Constitution</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">, les <strong>députés</strong>
adoptent un amendement selon lequel <i>« les langues régionales appartiennent
au patrimoine de </i></span><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">la
République</span></i><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR"> »</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">. Le 18 juin, les
<strong>sénateurs</strong> suppriment cette disposition, jugée par les deux
tiers d'entre eux, et de tous bords, attentatoire à l'identité nationale et à
l'unité de </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">la
République.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR"> Ils</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR"> refusent d'ajouter cette
phrase à l'article 1 de </span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">la
Constitution.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">
Seuls</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR"> le PS, les Verts et quelques UMP
ont voté contre.</span></font></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; text-align: justify;"><font color="#0000ff"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">Entre
temps, les gérontes de <strong>l'Académie française</strong> avaient préparé le
terrain pour les Sénateurs : « <i>L'unité de </i></span><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR">la
Nation</span></i><i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR"> est en
jeu »</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="FR"> avait mis en garde<i> </i>Max GALLO !</span><font size="2">"</font></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; text-align: justify;"><font size="2">quoted from a "communiqué du Bureau de l'Alliance Régionale Flandre
Artois Hainaut" dated june 21.</font></p></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Back to Belgium.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Actually in Belgium one has two layers, the dialects (or
regional languages?) and the administrative languages (Dutch, French and
German).</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><strong>As for the dialects:</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">I'm not aware of municipalities switching recently from
<font color="#0000ff">Walloon/Picard</font> to <font color="#008000">Flemish/Brabantish/Limburgish/Ripuarisch/Moselle-Franconian incl.
Luxembourgish</font> or v.v.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">There may be some exceptions, as e.g. Herstappe (<strong>40
</strong>inhabitants, mostly farmers) in the very South of Belgian Limburg
(switched from French to Dutch as administrative language in 1930).</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">The only dialectically bilingual/trilingual municipality I'm
aware of is<strong> Aubel</strong>: Walloon in the South, Voeren-Limburgish in
the West; Moresnet-Limburgish in the East (so not really mixed but combining
different hamlets); It became administratively French-only after
WWII.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Toponomy indicates some switches happened quite a
long time ago, maybe even before Dutch or French became written languages,
as indicate e.g. the names of Waterloo, Neerheylissem, Dongelberg,
Clabecq etc in Walloon Brabant and Walshoutem, Walsbets etc in Flemish
Brabant.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">What is happening though nowadays is <strong>loss of
dialect</strong>, combined with <strong>switching to an administrative
language</strong>. <font color="#0000ff">That switch may be from a Germanic
dialect to French</font>.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><strong>As for the administrative
languages:</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Belgium started virtually with <strong>French only</strong> in
1830 (with unofficial translations of the law gazetteer). The Flemish movement
acquired a position for Dutch. The South refused to become bilingual, the North
passed gradually over a <strong>bilingual </strong>situation into
<strong>monolingual Dutch</strong>.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Criterium for the administrative language of a municipality
were the language censi. Because of these implications, the censi were
politically inflluenced and turned into referenda, with several municipalities
turning from Dutch into French every 10 years. The WWII heritage was
used for feeding anti-germanic feelings at the occasion of the census of
1947 and as a result some municalities with 10-15 percent of French speaking
people in 1930 switched to 80-90 percent French in 1947.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">This was particularily true for Northern (Bleyberg-Moresnet)
and Central Altbelgien (Bocholz = Beho), since these areas were (together
with Eupen-Malmedy-Sankt-Vith) annnexed by the Reich in 1940. Inhabitants were
forced to serve in the German army and punished afterwards by the
Belgians for collaboration with the ennemy.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">In 1962 a <strong>fixed</strong> borderline for
administrative use was imposed. </font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Northern people adjust (= switch to French) easily to the
local language when moving to the South, </font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Southern people generally keep their culture when moving to
the North and use all kind of national and international legal procedures
for getting switches of the local administrative language into French. This is
especially true in municipalities with "facilities", i.e. special provisions for
serving administratively in the other language.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">It is like giving the Indians some territory, let the
Anglo-Saxons immigrate, et let them get right in the Supreme court that they
have an equal opportunity right to impose their culture over Indian
land.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">
<div><font size="2">Since the international press (including the Germans) mainly
reads French newspapers in Brussels, the Northern people are often
internationally classified as facistic and intolerant.</font></div></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Additionally to the political pressure, there was a
<strong>difficulty of definition</strong>. The Limburgish speaking
<strong>Sippenaken</strong> got alternatively German and Dutch
language parish priests, depending on availability of resources in the
Bishopric of Liège.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">The 1930 census gave: French 42.77 perc., German 33.85 perc.,
Dutch 18.15 perc. What they really were speaking was a
<strong>Limburgish-Ripuarian</strong> transition dialect. So they got
<strong>French </strong>administrative ruling as democacy requires.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">(data quoted from Remouchamps, Carte systématique de la
Wallonie, p. 211-269 + large map, in Bulletin de la Commission Royale de
Toponymie & Dialectologie, vol. IX, 1935)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Actually it is <strong>or </strong>French<strong> or</strong>
Dutch. History has proven that <strong>mixed situations leads to French
only</strong> after less than 2 generations.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">The positive thing. Walloon politicians started acquiring some
Dutch since 10-15 years and are becoming able to say a few things in Dutch on
Flemish TV. The effect is that Dutch is no longer dealt with as a farmer's
language. Quite some French-language speakers regret that they cannot speak
the first language of this country. The most frustrating thing for me is seeing
on TV interviews of teachers of Dutch in the French system. It's often
difficult to understand what language they are speaking. So quite some non-Dutch
speakers </font><font size="2">are sending their kids to schools of the
Flemish network in Brussels, pushing Flemish kids often into a minority position
in their own school.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Btw there is a large German school in Wezembeek-Oppem, a
Flemish outskirt municipality with facilities, momentarily with virtually
French-only in the streets:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><a href="http://www.dsbruessel.be/" target="_blank">http://www.dsbruessel.be/</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Regards,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Roger</font></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="3">From: R. F. Hahn <</font><a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><font size="3">sassisch@yahoo.com</font></a></div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3">Subject: Language
varieties<br><br>Thanks for all that, Roger.<br><br>Not much of a surprise in the French news, I'm afraid.<br><br>As for Belgium, aren't French and Dutch mandatory school subjects all over the country and, if not, ought they not be? While this may not make much of a difference among those that are adults now, it would make a difference in the future.<br>
<br>The situation would then be as in Norway, where schooling in (majority) Dano-Norwegian and (minority) Neo-Norwegian is mandatory for all, so that there's one non-native national language to be learned by everyone. Similarly, unless it has changed lately, all Fins have some schooling in Finnish and Swedish, the two national languages.<br>
<br>In the case of the German-speaking area of Belgium this would mean <i>two</i> national languages to be learned non-natively, just as Sami people of Norway and Finland have to learn Finnish and Swedish non-natively. In these cases I would hope to see a regional educational requirement that makes German mandatory for everyone in that part of Belgium and Sami mandatory for everyone living in regions in which Sami is official. Similarly, both Frisian and Dutch ought to be required of everyone living in </font><strong style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-weight: normal;" lang="DE">Fryslân and in officially Frisian-speaking areas of Groningen. <br>
<br>At the same time, people ought to be educated away from seeing this as a burden toward seeing it as a privilege and a useful extra skill. This could be enhanced by paying workers a language bonus if they are conversant in another national language, and another one for English if this is relevant. (This is done for instance in California where you go up one rung on the pay scale if you can use Spanish in working with the public, in relevant places also for predominant immigrant languages such as Mandarin, Cantonese, Khmer, Lao, Russian, Somali, Amharic or Tigrinya.)<br>
<br>Of course, then there is the legal element. Businesses that advertise themselves as offering bilingual French and Dutch (or trilingual with English added) service could be reported, sued and/or fined for false advertising if they don't deliver what they advertise. It can be argued that this advertising entices certain customers who then discover that the advertised service is not available, as was the case in a couple of your experiences.<br>
<br>If Brussels is officially French and Dutch speaking there has to be some sort of reenforcement and incentive, or else you might as well bite the bullet and make it officially French speaking<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron</span></strong><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">