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<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 23 June 2008 - Volume 03<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">-------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Helge Tietz</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:helgetietz@yahoo.com">helgetietz@yahoo.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.22 (06) [E/LS]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Leve Lowlanders,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The area around Eupen-Maastricht-Liege-Aachen
is linguistically indeed very interesting and very confusing including
the curious existence of Neutral Moresnet which was a virtually
independent country for almost hundred years, remnants are still found
as e.g at the three-country-point near Vaals where the border lines
drawn on the ground still mark the border of former Neutral Moresnet
and the street leading to the three -country-point in Vaals is still
called Viergrensenweg. Since it is linguistically accepted that those
dialects north of the Benrath line are to be categorized as Dutch this
again raises more queston because those dialects in Moenchengladbach
(Jlabbaeck) Neuss (Nuess) and above all Duesseldorf (excl. Benrath) are
to be considered Dutch, thus Lowlands. Kirchroeds (Kerkrade dialect)
would be considered non-Lowlands. But culturally the people in
Duesseldorf and Nuess would not really consider themselfs Dutch, they
culturally are much more orientated to Ripurarian Cologne for obvious
geographical reasons, whose dialect they understand without a problem.
Then again, traditionally the people from Jlabbaeck have no
difficulties to understand a dialect speaker from Roermond, which
anyone from Cologne will probably not understand. So where do you draw
the border? The answer is: you cannot! There is a very interesting
article concering the Franconian language which rejects the idea to
split the now called Low Franconian dialects from Ripurarian and
include them to the Dutch and Low Saxon dialects. It is by Friedrcih
Engels (that very Engels who co-authored "Das Kapital" among others)
who argues for Franconian consciousness apart from German and Dutch
from the Panningen line all the way to the Speyer line. It is available
in German under </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://www.mlwerke.de/me/me19/me19_474.htm#Kap_III" target="_blank">http://www.mlwerke.de/me/me19/me19_474.htm#Kap_III</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">He
has got a point just as much as Wenker and Frings have a point. I
indeed believe to divide the northern Rhineland and Limburg into German
and Dutch is almost as impossible as it is to divide Brussels and
surroundings into Wallon and Flemish, both exist next to each other and
among each other.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Groeten vun</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Helge</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="3">From: R. F. Hahn <</font><a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><font size="3">sassisch@yahoo.com</font></a></div><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3">Subject: Language
varieties<br><br>Hi, Helge!<br><br>Thanks for this very interesting piece! (Not that any of your previous pieces weren't very interesting as well.)<br><br>In even trying to divide or rather classify, especially in an area so confusingly transitional, I don't think it is expedient to use large categories that on top of it coincide with national labels: Dutch versus German. Psychologically alone these categories bring up distortions if you use them in surveys and proposals -- knee-jerk reactions connected with national loyalty and historical scars. This would definitely be the case if you referred to Low Saxon of the Netherlands as a subcategory of "German." And if you go that far, you might was well consider all Low Franconian varieties German, which some do, but which is not well received by many.<br>
<br>In discussions about language classification, I would use "Low Franconian" (or "Low Frankish") instead of "Dutch," and "Low Saxon" for all Old-Saxon-derived varieties. You might say "Netherlandic" instead of "</font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3">Low Franconian," as some do with reference to the cultures of the area that is now Belgium, the Netherlands and Flemish France.</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3"><br>(I personally use "German" for the varieties other than "Low ...", and I think there is something to be said for the proposal to consider them "South Germanic" rather than considering them a group within West Germanic.)<br>
<br>I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian varieties from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch" and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.<br>
<br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br><br></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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