<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 26 June 2008 - Volume 06<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <<a href="mailto:Kreimer@jpberlin.de">Kreimer@jpberlin.de</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.27 (03) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>¡ Save Berlin dialect as cultural heritage !</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hello LL-world & Marcus,</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Am 26.06.2008 um 16:08 schrieb Marcus Buck <<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div>Subject: LL-L "Culture" 2008.06.25 (02) [E/LS]:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">My
original point was the people of Brandenburg not keeping up their Low
Saxon heritage, cause they got told (not explicitly told, but
implicitly they adopted the message) they were "Ossis", people from
Eastern Germany. This, together with additional influence from the 3.5
million people city Berlin, made them change their Mark-Brandenburgian
language and identity to a mixture of "outskirts of Berlin" and "German
Democratic Republic" language and identity. This is a mixture of
"country thinking" and "cultural erosion through media" (national media
of the former GDR, actually).</blockquote></div><br><div>A rather adventurous theory!</div><div><br></div><div>1.)
500 years ago, Berlin began to change step by step to the then
Meissnian dialect for practical reasons: the commercial connections to
Meissen and Lipsia (and later to the whole Middle and South German
world) were important for it's own commercial and industrial
devolopment, more important than the connections to the - at the
beginning - still Low Saxon speaking North.</div><div><br></div><div>2.) Berlin did not change to Standard German (which at the beginning did not exist</div><div>but
to the Middle German dialect of that of the margraveship (county) of
Meissen at that time, i. e. to a dialect which still had been half been
Middle High German, with incomplete consonant's shift and the
New/Modern High German vocal shift only partly accomplished.</div><div><br></div><div>There is a interesting build-up of examples in Agathe Laasch's "Berlinisch"</div><div>{mhd.=Middle High German, obs.=Meissnian [for "obersächsisch"], berl.=Berlinian, nd.= Low Saxon [niederdeutsch]}:</div>
<div><br></div><div>a) [engl.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>my/mine<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wine<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>his<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stone<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>to mean]</div>
<div><br></div><div>mhd.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>sîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>meinen</div>
<div>obs.[M]<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>sein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stên<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mênen</div>
<div>berl.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>sein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stên<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mênen</div>
<div>nd.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>sîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stên<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mênen</div>
<div><br></div><div>b) [engl.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>house<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mouse<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>tree<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>also, too]</div><div>
<br></div><div>mhd.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>hûs<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mûs<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>boum<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>ouch</div><div>obs.[M]<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>haus<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>maus<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>bôm<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>ôch</div>
<div>berl.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>haus<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>maus<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>bôm<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>ôch</div><div>nd.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>hûs<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mûs<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>bôm<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>ôk</div>
<div><br></div><div>3.) Berlin adopted the Meissnian vocal phonology and orthography (later Standard German) but applied the Low Saxon articulation.</div><div><br></div><div>Further there was a lot of concordance - mainly in the vocalisation - between Meissnian/Berlinian and LS words.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Berlinian maintained some wording and phrasing of Mark-Brandenburgian LS.</div><div><br></div><div>Indeed
one can mix LS and Berlinian elements, as this is possible with LS and
Middle High German, too. - What is rather impossible between LS and
Standard German, not so much because of the consonant shift but the
Modern High German vocal shift. (There is e. g. also more sound
similarity between LS and Swiss German - a Middle High German dialect -
than between LS and Standard German.)</div><div><br></div><div>4.)
Already long before the existence of the GDR even the farther parts of
Brandenburg and all the younger Generations had adopted the Berlinian
dialect because of similar reasons as Berlin erstwhile did with
Meissnian: the necessity of easier communication and participation in
economic and cultural life of the center of Brandenburg and Germany, i.
e. Berlin.</div><div><br></div><div>5.) Because of similar reasons the
communication on this list is mainly in Modern English and not in the
various Low Saxon varieties - despite that English is at least so
faraway from any LS dialect as Standard German is. That seems to be the
easier way of mutuel understanding and explaining one's arguments -
because it is a modern, urban, civilized - standardized! - language,
usable even in humanities... ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>5.) Berlinian
has never been the "brand label" or marker of state and politics of GDR
(despite some highlights in culture, theatre etc.), the language
varieties in which the official state of GDR presented itself was
rather ugly Modern Meissnian ("Sächsisch" - hear Ulbricht),
Mosel-Frankonian (Honnecker) and stilted efforts of a burocratic
Standard German. - In any case nothing for the youth of Land/state
Brandenburg to identify with, even in case of "Ostalgie" (social
GDR-nostalgia).</div><div><br></div><div>6.) Nowadays the Berlinian
dialect itself is in danger because of the consequences of the economic
take-over of East Germany, of the West/South (!) German repopulation of
Berlin (formerly restricted to West Berlin) and because nobody in the
Berlin government and political culture is aware of the cultural virtue
of this local (and now regional) dialect and nothing is done to save
this delightful and witty language of the broad people and the
literature.</div><div><br></div><div>Conclusio:</div><div><br></div><div>Instead
of deploring the almost completed and unarrestable die-off of the
Brandenburg LS we'd better care about the survival of the Berlinian
dialect! </div><div><br></div><div><span>Met echt-westfälsken Gröiten!</span></div><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 22px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 22px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 22px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;"><div><span style="font-size: 22px;"><div>Joachim</div></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0px;">--</div><div style="margin: 0px;">Kreimer-de Fries</div></div></span></div>
</span></span></span><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="3">From: R. F. Hahn <</font><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><font size="3">sassisch@yahoo.com</font></a></div>
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3">Subject: Language varieties<br><br>Moin, Joachim! Great to hear from you. Thanks for the above.<br><br>Not that I would want to detract from the essence, but I feel obligated to tweak something in your data.<br>
<br></font><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">a) [engl.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>my/mine<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wine<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>his<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stone<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>to mean]</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">mhd.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>sîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>meinen</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">obs.[M]<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>sein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stên<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mênen</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">berl.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>sein<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>stên<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mênen</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">nd.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>wîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>sîn<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span><b style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102);">stên<span style="white-space: pre; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> </span>mênen</b></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">b) [engl.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>house<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mouse<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>tree<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>also, too]</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">mhd.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>hûs<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mûs<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>boum<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>ouch</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">obs.[M]<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>haus<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>maus<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>bôm<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>ôch</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">berl.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>haus<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>maus<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>bôm<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>ôch</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">nd.<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>hûs<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>mûs<span style="white-space: pre;"> </span><b><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 102);">bôm</span><span style="white-space: pre; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> </span><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">ôk</span></b></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3">The marked Low Saxon items have diphthongs:<br><br>steyn [stɛˑɪn] ~ [staˑɪn] (stone)<br>meynen [ˈmɛˑɪnn̩] ~ [</font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3">ˈmaˑɪnn̩] (to mean)</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3">boum [bɔˑʊm] ~ [baˑʊm] (tree)<br><br>but in the following item a monophthong, at least originally, or in many dialects:<br>ook [ʔoːk] (also, too)<br><br>In Middle Saxon, these tended to be written the way you wrote them above. We can't be totally sure if they where monophthongs or diphthongs. But, going by spelling variation, it looks like they were diphthongs at least in some dialects:<br>
<br>stên ~ steyn ~ stein (stone)<br>mênen ~ meynen ~ meinen (to mean)<br>also:<br></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3">êk(e) ~ eyk(e) ~ eik(e) (oak)</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="3"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">bôm ~ boum ~ baum (tree)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">but:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ôk (also, too)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Do you think that in the Brandenburg dialects of Berlin /ee/ and /ey/ were leveled to /ee/, and /oo/ and /ou/ to /oo/?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br>
</font><br>