<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 02 July 2008 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <<a href="mailto:ipm7d@OI.COM.BR">ipm7d@OI.COM.BR</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Dutch dialects</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hallo!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Do all dialects show the oe pronunciation same as in Dutch boek, or</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
there is different pronunciation among them?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
And, sorry for those "(extraneous) questions about Danish phonology". I</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
did't mean to mess up. I really compare germanic languages and I know they</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
all share a common ancestor. It's like I wanted to discover when the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
long /o/ and /i/ changed. But sincerely, I know I have brought some</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
extraneous questions here and I know I was wrong in doing that.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I do apologize.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ívison.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Language studies" 2008.07.01 (04) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ron wrote about long o/oo in Dutch that it sounds like [o:] or as the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
diphthong o in English broke.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
A diphthong is standard for long oo and ee, monophthongs are not heard in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Standard Dutch (other than before r), except when spoken with a strong Low</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Saxon (but not LS from the North), Limburgian or Flemish accent, but that</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
are regional pronunciations influenced by the local dialects and not</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
accepted as standard.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But à vison, to avoid confusion: what Ron wrote was not about the vowel in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the counterparts of E book, that has oe [u] not a long o sound in Dutch,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
it's just about the pronunciation of written long o/oo.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In the Netherlands, the Low Saxon dialects of Hamaland (Eastern Achterhoek</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
region, province Gelderland + Twente region, province Overyssel) do have a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
long monophthong [o:] in book [bo:k] = Dutch boek [buk] = E book, as well</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
as long monophthong [e:] in leed [le:t] = Dutch lied [lit] = E song and so</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
do a few Central Drenthe LS dialects and most of Limburgian.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As Rein stated, the articles in Scandinavian were an off topic so I tried</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
to make the connection with Lowlandic by asking if den de det before an</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
article + noun may have been influenced by Low Saxon, which had an</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
enormous influence on the Scandinavian languages, because normally i.e.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
without adjective they use suffixes for articles.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Norwegian, both Nynorsk and Bokmål, has the double construction:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
both den/de/det before the article + noun and the suffixes behind the noun.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The fact that Icelandic is the only language that does not have the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
construction with articles before the adjective but only the usual</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
suffixes reinforces my hunch of Low Saxon influence. Anyone?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Groeten</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Language studies" 2008.07.01 (04) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ron wrote about long o/oo in Dutch that it sounds like [o:] or as the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
diphthong o in English broke.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
A diphthong is standard for long oo and ee, monophthongs are not heard in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Standard Dutch (other than before r), except when spoken with a strong Low</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Saxon (but not LS from the North), Limburgian or Flemish accent, but that</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
are regional pronunciations influenced by the local dialects and not</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
accepted as standard.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But à vison, to avoid confusion: what Ron wrote was not about the vowel in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the counterparts of E book, that has oe [u] not a long o sound in Dutch,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
it's just about the pronunciation of written long o/oo.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In the Netherlands, the Low Saxon dialects of Hamaland (Eastern Achterhoek</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
region, province Gelderland + Twente region, province Overyssel) do have a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
long monophthong [o:] in book [bo:k] = Dutch boek [buk] = E book, as well</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
as long monophthong [e:] in leed [le:t] = Dutch lied [lit] = E song and so</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
do a few Central Drenthe LS dialects and most of Limburgian.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
As Rein stated, the articles in Scandinavian were an off topic so I tried</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
to make the connection with Lowlandic by asking if den de det before an</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
article + noun may have been influenced by Low Saxon, which had an</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
enormous influence on the Scandinavian languages, because normally i.e.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
without adjective they use suffixes for articles.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Norwegian, both Nynorsk and Bokmål, has the double construction:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
both den/de/det before the article + noun and the suffixes behind the noun.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The fact that Icelandic is the only language that does not have the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
construction with articles before the adjective but only the usual</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
suffixes reinforces my hunch of Low Saxon influence. Anyone?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Groeten</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Robert Haslach</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:roberthaslach@verizon.net">roberthaslach@verizon.net</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Language studies" 2008.07.01 (04) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In my auditory experience - oo in standard Dutch lengthens to a low o
while here in the US the oo becomes ou but varies widely by English
dialect/accent region</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
Robert Haslach</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Elsie Zinsser</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:ezinsser@mhsc.org.za">ezinsser@mhsc.org.za</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language studies" 2008.07.01 (04) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="AF">Hi
all, </span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="AF">Ron,
'boek' is not pronounced with a long diphtong but with a short [u] and without
a schwa, hence [buk],<br>as
are: </span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="AF">soek
[suk], doek [duk], vloek [fluk], koek [kuk], etc.</span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="AF">Your
description is that of an English speaker using Afrikaans. </span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="AF">Regards,</span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="AF">Elsie
</span></font></p>
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="AF">Ron:
In Afrikaans it represents a long [u:] sound followed by a short schwa sound.</span></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: Phonology<br><br>Hi, Elsie!<br><br>I may have misunderstood Ívison's question. I responded to how written "oo" was pronounced in the various languages.<br><br></span></font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi, </span><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Ívison!<br>
<br>Don't worry about it, and don't let my reminders of the focus dampen your enthusiasm. As I said, I think it's just terrific that you're getting into Germanic languages beyond English. If you keep our focus in mind it becomes easier to rephrase your questions.<br>
<br>Regard,<br>Reinhard/Ron</span></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">