<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 05 July 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">-------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">If viewing this in a web browser, please click on</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page </span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">and switch your browser's character encoding to Unicode.</span><br>=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.04 (06) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>><br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Language politics<br>
<br><div class="Ih2E3d">
Marcus,<br>
<br>
Are your worries keeping you awake? You should be asleep right now where you are.<br>
<br>
Oh, come on now! I was being sarcastic -- obviously. I wouldn't be
"making fun" of your worries if I shared them and were convinced that
you indeed lack talent. Well, I have news for you: I don't. <br>
</div></blockquote><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Man, I really thought: "Yeah, he finally got the point", when you said
"convinced that you indeed lack talent" and then you say "I don't".
That's not okay!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Marcus Buck<br>
(and still awake)</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.05 (01) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL" target="_blank">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> <mailto:</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL" target="_blank">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.04 (05) [E]<br>
<br>
Hi Marcus e.a, the numbers of Low Saxon speakers in the Netherlands seem<br>
to be completely different from those of Germany you gave.<br>
<br>
Of the inhabitants in the Low Saxon areas of the Netherlands,<br>
<br>
64,4% between 18 and 39 yrs old know LS, and 38,5% good or very good<br>
66,9% between 40 and 60 yrs old know LS, and 52,4% good or very good<br>
70,1& over 60 years know LS, and 55,7% good or very good<br>
<br>
according to Henk Bloemhoff's "Taaltelling Nedersaksisch - Een enquête<br>
naar het gebruik en de beheersing van het Nedersaksisch in Nederland"<br>
Groningen/Oldeberkoop 2005.<br>
<br>
But in the same book there is a table "Dialektkompetenz bezüglich des<br>
Niederdeutschen (Alte Bundesländer)" about competence in Low Saxon in<br>
Germany, that gives much higher percentages than your 14,3 %:<br>
<br>
Schleswig-Holstein: sehr gut/gut 47%<br>
ein wenig 21%<br>
Hamburg: sehr gut/gut 29%<br>
ein wenig 26%<br>
Niedersachsen/Bremen: sehr gut/gut 53%<br>
ein wenig 20%<br>
Südniedersachsen: sehr gut/gut 27%<br>
ein wenig 17%<br>
Nord-NRW: sehr gut/gut 27%<br>
ein wenig 22%<br>
<br>
Source: Niebaum & Macha 1999, based on Stellmacher 1987<br>
<br>
So the situation seems to be not so bad as it seems for LS ;-)<br>
</blockquote><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Yes, I was aware, that the numbers in the Netherlands most likely would
be higher than in Germany. But I had no exact numbers and choose it
would be better to underestimate than to overestimate.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Your numbers are based on Stellmacher 1987, which is based on the 1984
GETAS survey. They had a total number of 35% speakers of Low Saxon for
the whole language area. But since then more than 20 years went by ...
Well, life expectancy is around 80 years. That means, in 20 years
roundabout 25% of the population dies. The number of speakers went down
21%. That's the state of language maintenance... It's sad.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I guess, if nothing changes, the number of speakers will be around 5%
in twenty years and in 40 years less than 1%. In 60 years (I will be 85
then) most likely it will be possible to invite all remaining competent
speakers to have a coffee klatsch with Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte. Ah,
perhaps in 60 some more will be left, could be too many for a coffee
klatsch. But for my 100th birthday, I will invite them all ;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Also, miene leben Plattsnackers hier op de List: Ji sünd all recht vun
Harten inloodt för den 9. August 2082, Klock dree, to Kaffee un Koken.
Wo: ik hööp doch in Brobargen, wenn mi dat good geit un miene Urinkels
den olen Tüünbüdel, de in eensen to bi sik sülben in Tungen sprickt,
nich in't Heim afschoben hebbt. Wenn se mi doch afgeben hebbt (oder
Brobargen 2082 al dree Meter ünner de See liggt), denn geev ik to
rechte Tied noch we'er bescheed, woneem dat ween schall.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Glieks indrogen in'n Klenner! Nich, dat ji noch en tweten Termin annehmt. Rechtiedig noog inloodt heff ik!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(Wenn de Forschers 2013 den Slötel to dat ewige Leben opdecken doot, denn heff ik en Platzproblem ;-) )</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Marcus Buck</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);"><a href="mailto:Heiko.evermann@gmx.de">Heiko.evermann@gmx.de</a></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.07.05 (01) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi Ingmar,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">> But in the same book there is a table "Dialektkompetenz bezüglich des<br>
> Niederdeutschen (Alte Bundesländer)" about competence in Low Saxon in<br>
> Germany, that gives much higher percentages than your 14,3 %:<br>
><br>
> Schleswig-Holstein: sehr gut/gut 47%<br>
> ein wenig 21%<br>
> Hamburg: sehr gut/gut 29%<br>
> ein wenig 26%<br>
> Niedersachsen/Bremen: sehr gut/gut 53%<br>
> ein wenig 20%<br>
> Südniedersachsen: sehr gut/gut 27%<br>
> ein wenig 17%<br>
> Nord-NRW: sehr gut/gut 27%<br>
> ein wenig 22%<br>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I am working in Tornesch in Schleswig-Holstein. All of my team knows of my</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
interest in Low Saxon. But none of them can speak it.The closest is the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
daughter of one of my team (whom I have never met). She took part in a local</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Low Saxon theater group, but this was largely due to her boyfriend of that</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
time. After they split, she did not continue. She did her role well, but she</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
never spoke the language.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
When I count at least 15 workmates with whom I have closer contact, the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
chances are odd that there is no one who can speak LS, if 47% of them should</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
be able to do so according to your statistic.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Quite a number of people claim that they can understand Low Saxon and quite a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
number of them are able to follow the Ohnsorg Theater to some extent, but</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
when you test them by asking for the LS equivalent of German words, they</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
usually fail when it goes beyond simple words like</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
ich/ik, Pferd/Peerd.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In short: I do not believe that the numbers you give are correct.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Heiko</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">