<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 07 July 2008 - Volume 04<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.07.06 (05) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: Ivison dos Passos Martins <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:ipm7d@OI.COM.BR">ipm7d@OI.COM.BR</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Great Vowel Shift</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> I have been trying to find a dialect or maybe a language which hasn't</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>been totally affected by the Great Vowel Shift. This would probably help</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>to know approximately how Old English sounded. Long vowels shifted. So the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>word gód in OE (which rhymed with modern low) now sounds /gʊd/.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I think there is already a pretty good idea of how Old English sounded,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
you don't need to find out by way of other Germanic languages and dialects.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I'm sure someone of the English speaking guys/ladies here can give you</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
some interesting links about it. But you might find out at the internet</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
yourself as well, if you tried</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ivison:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> An old Dutch priest friend of mine who lived here told me that some</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>dialects have a different pronunciation for boek, shoe, and other words</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>where oe would normally sound as modern /u/. Unfortunately he doesn't live</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>here any more. And he said there were also dialects which had words such</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>win /ween/ for wine 'Wijn". Which dialect has kept much of the ancient</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>pronunciation without been affected by the Great Vowel Shift? Can we find</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>such behavior in german dialects or even English dialects?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
There are a few dialects with "ween" for "wijn", but only one or two small</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
ones. I think the Low Saxon of Urk island, and some Betuwe South Guelders</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(Low Franconian) dialects. It is an intermediate stadium between original</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
[i:] and present day [EI]. It also depends how your friend pronounced EE</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in "ween"; in Standard Dutch it would be [e:I], but "ee" is used in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
dialects spellings for monophthong [e:] as well. An interestinmg fact for</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
you, Ivison, is that in the Dutch of your neighbours in Suriname, "ee"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
[e:I] is the standard pronunciation of Dutch ij/ei, as is "oo" [o:U] for</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dutch ou/au [aU].</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ivison again:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>Another question:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>Take the word goed, which sounded /go:d/ in old Dutch and the word koe,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>for instanceâ€" Am I right if I say that they only came to sound the same</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
>[oe - /u:/] because of the Great Vowel shift?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
No. They always sounded the same. First both with [o:], now both with [u].</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Again: there's a lot of info to be found at the world wide web, Ivison.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Travis Bemann</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:tabemann@gmail.com">tabemann@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: </span>LL-L "Phonology" 2008.07.07 (02) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Subject: Phonology</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Thanks a lot for this erudite summary, Travis.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> For the sake of "completion," would you be so kind as to explain how Low</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Saxon, Frisian and Scots fit into the scheme of things?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Scots (which is Anglic), for instance, did not participate in the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> diphthongization of [u:] (e.g. house ~ hoose [hu(:)s]), and it participated</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> in the diphthongization of [i:] only "partly" (or "half of the way"): [@I] ~</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> [@i]. The latter "half-way" shift has begun again in Modern Australian</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> English where high monophthongs have begun developing into rising dipthongs:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> [i:] > [Ii] ~ [@i] (as in "she", "beat" and "me"), [u:] > [Uw] ~ [@u_"] (as</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> in "do", "loop", "pool"), with lower onsets after labials. I think it's kind</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> of interesting that the same shift appears to occur twice.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Low Saxon and Frisian did not participate in either the Anglic Great</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Vowel Shift or the shifts described above in Low Franconian and High</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
German, but many Low Saxon dialects have had their own</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
diphthongizations independent of such or due to the influence of Low</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Franconian and or High German. As for Scots, what happened with /u:/</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
is that /o:/ was already fronted to /2:/, and as a result there was no</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
driving factor for /u:/ to be diphthongized; as for /@I/, that just</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
reflects an older form of what had been /i:/ that has since been lost</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in most English dialects (Canadian Raising notwithstanding).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Travis Bemann</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:tabemann@gmail.com">tabemann@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: </span>LL-L "Phonology" 2008.07.07 (02) [E]<br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="Ih2E3d">> From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> Subject: Phonology<br>
><br>
> Thanks a lot for this erudite summary, Travis.<br>
><br>
> For the sake of "completion," would you be so kind as to explain how Low<br>
> Saxon, Frisian and Scots fit into the scheme of things?<br>
><br>
> Scots (which is Anglic), for instance, did not participate in the<br>
> diphthongization of [u:] (e.g. house ~ hoose [hu(:)s]), and it participated<br>
> in the diphthongization of [i:] only "partly" (or "half of the way"): [@I] ~<br>
> [@i]. The latter "half-way" shift has begun again in Modern Australian<br>
> English where high monophthongs have begun developing into rising dipthongs:<br>
> [i:] > [Ii] ~ [@i] (as in "she", "beat" and "me"), [u:] > [Uw] ~ [@u_"] (as<br>
> in "do", "loop", "pool"), with lower onsets after labials. I think it's kind<br>
> of interesting that the same shift appears to occur twice.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Reinhard/Ron<br>
<br>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I forgot to mention, though, that while Frisian did not participate in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the Anglic Great Vowel Shift per se nor the shifts in Low Franconian</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
and High German, there have actually been similar vowel raising and</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
diphthongization in various Frisian languages. I would probably be</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
inclined to treat such as distinct from both, despite the superficial</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
similarities present.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">