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<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 08 July 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">jonny</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span class="HcCDpe"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "Comprehension" 2008.07.07 (03) [E]</span><br><br></span><div id="1f0z" class="ArwC7c ckChnd">
<div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">Beste Lowlanners,
</font></span><span><font face="Courier New">Theo,
Heather and Paul (Finlow-Bates),</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">you wrote about
'average' English native people's ability to read old English texts, and Heather
and Paul made a kind of chronological
'classification'</font> <font face="Courier New">around
it.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">This is very
interesting for me, because it would fit to old German texts (Middle Low
Saxon/Middle High German in this case; 13th-16th c.) as
well.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">Even if you haven't
to deal with handwritten original documents but with ones meanwhile
transcribed into modern letters you have to be aware of a lot of mistakes which
the former transcribers have made. So, if you want to produce a really
exact translation you'll always have to keep in your mind that you
mostly cannot be absolutely sure in every detail.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">Very helpful for
me is comparison with texts sharing similar matters, without
containing too much Latin and vague, empty phrases. 'Official' documents,
dealing with the 'Obrigkeit', i.e. with regional authorities or
governors, mostly are filled with this kind of stuff, whilst for
example documents of the Hanse are much clearer and simpler; they intended a
'normal' tradesman to be able to read and understand
them.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">An additional
problem is the fact that there hadn't been an official spelling system in that
time, and another one, that the writers often weren't very well
educated.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">But, what both
of you, Heather and Paul, mentioned about the fact that some knowledge in German
could be helpful to understand older English texts for native Englishmen
</font> <font face="Courier New">is valid as well for me as a native
German: my knowledge of English, too, helps a lot. And, Theo, this
might be interesting for you: often I found out that Dutch words solved the
problem, though my knowledge concerning Dutch is on a very low
level.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">I fully agree with
Heather: to be polyglot within the Ingvaeonic family, assisted by some
Latin and old Greek, is very helpful, as well as the blessing of the WWW, in
special being member of LL-L - don't you think so, myn
Reginhard ;-)?!</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">(BTW: Heather,
that's a nice hobby for dark winter evenings, to take part in a
palaeographic class. I'd wish we had any comparable project in our region!
An extended knowledge of local coherences, completed with those above mentioned
[modern] possibilities sometimes can lead to interesting and new views
of regional history.) </font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Courier New">Allerbest!</font></div>
<div align="left"> </div><font color="#888888">
<div align="left"><font face="Courier New">Jonny
Meibohm</font></div></font></div>
</div><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: Comprehension<br><br>Hi, Jonny and everyone!<br><br>I quite agree with your assessment, Jonny.<br></span></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Low Saxon </span></font><br>
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I even wonder if North Germans that have at least passive comprehension skills have an advantage studying Modern English, at least to start off with, and at least so in the olden days when teaching methods weren't too good. For people that don't actually know about phonological shifts it is less of a leap from Low Saxon to English than directly from German to English. Experience with earlier forms of English also vastly improved my reading comprehension in earlier forms of Saxon and German.<br>
<br>Dutch and Afrikaans are easiest for me, at least on the formally written level. The only difficulties I have are with certain early, nativized loanwords (in the case of Afrikaans especially Southern-Africa-specific vocabulary) and with various idiomatic expressions that bear no resemblance to expressions in related languages.<br>
<br>Knowing German and Low Saxon, even if only modern forms, comes in very handy when you delve into Middle and Old English. I once did so with only native English speakers as my classmates, and I had by far the easiest time. Or was this only because I'm weird? Because of this I had keen awareness of historical linguistic processes before I formally studied them, and that included processes that others did not grasp intuitively. Crossing language lines at the old stages seems particularly easy if you have learned to read one of them, since differences were not as pronounced then as they are today.<br>
<br>So there is indeed something to be said for not only visiting today's neighbors beyond fences and ponds, and this is what we are doing here on a daily basis. At the very least it helps you see your own yard in a clearer light and to appreciate it more than you would otherwise do. But there's also a lot to be said for going through ancestral albums, because they make you understand today more clearly. The two go hand in hand, enhance each other.<br>
<br>I also agree that Hanseatic documents are comparatively easy to read among Middle Saxon ones, because of the very straightforwardness you mentioned, Jonny. Aside from the customary greetings at the beginning and end, those merchants were not in the business of cluttering their letters and records with vague pleasantries. Furthermore, they were using an international lingua franca, many as a foreign language, so there may have been a simplification factor. I also find Middle Saxon poetic works with intended popular appeal easy to read, a good example being <i>Reynard de vos</i> (Reynard the Fox).<br>
<br>When I grew up people used to say that bothering with dead languages, including past varieties, is a waste of time. I beg to differ. I find it a very worthwhile exercise on various levels -- all the better if it allows you to read historical documents that are of interest to you other than linguistic utility.<br>
<br>So, yes, I agree that Heather's paleography class is a great thing. Jonny, so there isn't such a thing where you are. How about you starting one? First of all, I know that you have the ability. Secondly, you could organize it as a paleographic exercise or research circle in which no one is the instructor, in which people just stick their heads together and help each other along. Some of my best group study sessions were of this type. "If you build it they will come." Lots of people are interested in local and regional history, not to mention family history research. Who knows what sorts of treasures some people are sitting on not knowing what to do with them? Also, you could recruit your local librarian(s) to help with research location and with cataloging your translations and findings. Some local administration might provide a venue or even some funding. <br>
<br>And, yes, I owe you my part of our current project, and several people are waiting for my email replies. I haven't forgotten, but I've been swamped with "stuff," and the recent hot weather hasn't helped my productivity.<br>
<br>Kumpelmenten,<br>Reinhard/Ron</span></font><br>
•
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