<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 08 July 2008 - Volume 05<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marsha Wilson</span> <span><<a href="mailto:marshatrue@mtangel.net" target="_blank">marshatrue@mtangel.net</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div>In the U.S., many of us would say, incorrectly,
"they" ran down the street. More properly it would be "He or she" ran down
the street.</div>
<div>Marsha Wilson</div><font color="#888888">
<div>in sunny Oregon</div></font><div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>From:</b>
<a title="lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM" href="mailto:lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank">Lowlands-L List</a> </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">jonny</span> <span><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" target="_blank">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br>
Subject: LL-L
"Grammar"<br><br></div>
<div><span>Beste Lowlanners
abroad,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>how do you in
English use the gender of the word <b>_person_</b> <i>(neuter)</i>
in the following context?</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Just imagine, you
watched a person which (or who?) is suspected to have been involved in a
crime. Because it was dark, you could not see, if it had been a man
or a woman. How do you tell it the police constable?</span></div>
<div><span>"I saw a tall
<b>person</b> with a black hat and a grey coat. (_He_? _She_? _It_?)
ran down the street to the left side." It should be 'it', I guess? But it
sounds in a certain way strange for me.</span></div>
<div><span>(If I would replace
_person_ by 'individual' my problem wouldn't be
solved!)</span></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell</span> <span><<a href="mailto:kevin.caldwell1963@verizon.net" target="_blank">kevin.caldwell1963@verizon.net</a>><br>
Subject: </span>LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]<br><br></span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The average native speaker would probably use "they" to refer to
a person of unknown sex. So it would be:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">"I saw a tall <b>person</b> with a black hat and a grey coat. They
ran down the street to the left side."</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You would probably explain to the police that you couldn't tell
if it was a man or a woman, or you might say something like, "He, or maybe it
was a she, ran down the street to the left side." But you'd never use "it"
because you're talking about a human being. About the only time you'd use "it"
to refer to a person would be if you were talking about a baby and asked, "Is
it a boy or a girl?"</span></p><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Kevin Caldwell</span></p></font>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span>
From: <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">jonny</span></span><span> </span><span><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" target="_blank">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><br><span>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Grammar"</span></span></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p><span>Beste
Lowlanners abroad,</span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p><span>how do you in
English use the gender of the word <b><span>_person_</span></b>
<i><span>(neuter)</span></i> in the
following context?</span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p><span>Just imagine,
you watched a person which (or who?) is suspected to have been involved in
a crime. Because it was dark, you could not see, if it had been a man
or a woman. How do you tell it the police constable?</span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p><span>"I saw a
tall <b><span>person</span></b>
with a black hat and a grey coat. (_He_? _She_? _It_?) ran down the street to
the left side." It should be 'it', I guess? But it sounds in a certain way
strange for me.</span></p>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="margin-left: 40px;"><span>(If I would
replace _person_ by 'individual' my problem wouldn't be solved!)</span></p>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);"></span><span><br>
Subject: </span>LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">jonny</span> <span><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor..de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"<br><br>
<div><span>Beste Lowlanners abroad,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>how do you in English use the gender of the word <b>_person_</b> <i>(neuter)</i> in the following context?</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Just
imagine, you watched a person which (or who?) is suspected to have been
involved in a crime. Because it was dark, you could not see, if it had
been a man or a woman. How do you tell it the police constable?</span></div>
<div><span>"I saw a tall <b>person</b>
with a black hat and a grey coat. (_He_? _She_? _It_?) ran down the
street to the left side." It should be 'it', I guess? But it sounds in
a certain way strange for me.</span></div>
<div><span>(If I would replace _person_ by 'individual' my problem wouldn't be solved!)</span></div>
</div><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">********************</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi Jonny,</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In these situations, a common get-out in English is to say "they",
even if there's only one of them, since plurals have no gender. "They
ran down the street etc." Looked at logically, it sounds a bit odd, I
know, but it sounds quite normal in everyday speech.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul F-B</p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 131, 145);"><a href="mailto:ipm7d@oi.com.br">ipm7d@oi.com.br</a></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);"></span><span><br>
Subject: </span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Beste Jonny<br>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Well I hope these examples may help you anyway:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
a) Just because a person doesn't agree with that issue doesn?t mean</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
that, therefore,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"they" don't worry about the global warming. They replaces he / she.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Remember english is trying not to be sexist here.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
b) If one person is more abrupt does not mean "he" or "she" is cold.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
c) I saw (someone somebody a stranger ) a person on the street</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
d) Today Gina saw someone behind the house. To be precise, he was</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
wearing a pair of glasses... In this case it depends on</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
if you think it was a man or a woman.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">[Ívison dos Passos Martins]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a>></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 131, 145);"></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);"></span><span><br>
Subject: </span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But, my dear Watson, how could you be sure that his/her/its hat was black</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
and his/her/its coat grey? Everything looks grey and black in the dark ;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
And a tall person with a black hat, wouldn't that probably a guy anyway ;)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In Dutch we would say something like "Ik zag iemand, lang met een zwarte</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
hoed en een grijze jas. Die rende de straat door aan de linkerkant."</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"Iemand" = someone, somebody, and "die" is that, both for males and</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
females, so not only for females as in German. Dutch "die man" = that</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
man, "die vrouw" = that woman, etc.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But "de persoon" or "het mens" would both be possible too. "Persoon"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
sounds pretty formal, I think a police officer would rather use that than</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
a witness. Probably I'd say: "Ik zag iemand, ik weet niet of het een man</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
of een vrouw was, met een zwarte hoed op en een grijze jas aan... Die</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
rende etc."</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: jonny <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Beste Lowlanners abroad,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
how do you in English use the gender of the word *_person_* *(neuter)* in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the following context?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Just imagine, you watched a person which (or who?) is suspected to have</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
been</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
involved in a crime. Because it was dark, you could not see, if it had</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
been a man or a woman. How do you tell it the police constable?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
"I saw a tall *person* with a black hat and a grey coat. (_He_? _She_?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
_It_?) ran down the street to the left side." It should be 'it', I guess?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But it sounds in a certain way strange for me.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(If I would replace _person_ by 'individual' my problem wouldn't be</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
solved!)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In Low Saxon we have got the same problem: "Ick hebb eyn' Perzoun seyhn *</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(we</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
like to avoid past tense, because present and past tense, as in this</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
case, often sound identically!)* mit eyn' swatten Hout un' eyn' griesen</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Mantel. *De* loyp linkerhand de Stroat hendaol." *'de'* denotes masculine</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
as</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
well as female, but in LS 'Perzoun' (like in 'dat Manns-Perzoun' or 'dat</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Frouwens-Perzoun') is neuter, so correctly it *should* be 'dat'. I guess it</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
to be influenced by Standard German.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In German all nouns have a clear gender, which have grammatically to be</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
used straight: "Ich sah ein*e* Person *(fem.)* mit schwarzem Hut und grauem</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Mantel. *Sie* lief nach links die Straße hinab." (Don't ask me, why a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
_Person_ in German is of female gender! Ladies first? I guess it is</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
deriving from Latin 'person*a*'.)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Though- many speakers would say: "Mir kam *das* kleine Mädchen auf dem</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Fahrrad irgendwie seltsam vor. *Sie* sah so ganz anders aus als ihre</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Freundinnen." ("The little girl on the bike appeared somehow strange to me.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
She looked completely different from*(?)* her mates.") '*sie*' is wrong in</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
this case; it should be '*es*'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Allerbest, and thanks in award!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Jonny Meibohm</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">jonny</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 131, 145);"></span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);"></span><span><br>
Subject: </span></span><span class="HcCDpe"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]</span><br><br></span><div><span><font face="Courier New">Leyve
Reinhard,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">Du
schreyvst:</font></span></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial"><em><strong>>
Dat</strong> persoon</em>, Jonny?! I say <b><i>dey</i></b><i> persoon</i> and
<i>sey</i>, thus make it feminine.<br><br>> Besides, it sounds a bit "yellow"
to me as well as 19th century to me. <i>Dey minsch</i> (original "human being")
would be my choice, a noun with > masculine gender, unless it denotes an
unpleasant woman, in which case it is neuter (!) <i>dat
minsch</i>.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
</div><div><span><font face="Courier New">Yes, yes- you're
absolutely right! I made some more thoughts about it and found out that indeed I
use LS _Perzoun_ as a neuter- but always and exclusively with an
additional, <u>valuating</u> adjective. I'd indeed keep saying 'Dat is
man 'n lütt' Perzoun!' (It is just a small person.)</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">But we can do so in
German, too: "Ich hab' heute unsere neue Nachbarin kennengelernt. Das scheint
'ne ganz patente Person zu sein!" ("Today I met our new neighbour.
<strong>It</strong> seems to be quite a nice person.") This sounds to
be Northern German dialect to me, do you agree?</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">So we might deal
with the well-known difference between speaking or writing a language
*s*.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">BTW: It won't last
for long, and then probably YOU will be my last and only serious critical! My
oldest uncle begins to become deaf and is no longer able to talk Platt with me,
the second one died three weeks ago, and one of my local mentors 'liggt
syd gystern tou Bankstoul', meaning: he also died yesterday.
</font> <font face="Courier New">Me to become one of the last local
authorities for LS? A very strange thought for me, but showing the rapidness of
the degeneration of LS as a rural, aboriginal and <u>spoken</u>
language.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Courier New">Allerbest<span>; houl Dy fuchtich un' noch lang gesund
;-)!</span></font></div>
<div align="left"> </div>
<font face="Courier New">Jonny Meibohm</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>----------<br><br><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">>
</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Grammar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi again, Jonny!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></span></font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Aha! Now I understgan d what's going on here.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This kind of German </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">das</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> or Low Saxon </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dat</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, just like the English equivalent </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">that</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in such constructions, is a demonstrative pronoun that, less "demonstratively," can be substituted with </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">es</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">it</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in German and English. (It remains </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dat</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in Low Saxon dialects that have lost </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">es</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> or </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">it</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">.) "Overuse" of this </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">das</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is typically North German, owing to a Low Saxon substratum.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">das</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> / </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dat</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> / </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">that</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> does not modify the noun. It </span><u style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">refers</u><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> to it, basically means "that which you see there is ..." or "what you have there is ..." or something like that.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Das</b> scheint <b>'ne</b> ganz patente Person zu sein!<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">See? You're using </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">'ne</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> for "a", which is feminine.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>That</b> seems to be <b>a</b> pretty smart person.<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This demonstrative </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">das</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> / </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">that</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is neutral, usually used where you don't know the gender. You could also use </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">es</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> / </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">it</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> as a neutral personal pronoun here:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Es</b> scheint <b>'ne</b> ganz patente Person zu sein!<br><b>It</b> seems to be <b>a</b> pretty smart person.<br>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">If you do know the gender, and you do here (the new female neighbor) you can use the specific personal pronoun:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="text-align: left; margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Sie</b> scheint <b>'ne</b> ganz patente Person zu sein!<br>
<b>She</b> seems to be <b>a</b> pretty smart person.<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">You can say:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Das </b>ist meine Frau, <b>das </b>ist mein Sohn, und <b>das </b>ist mein Haus.<br><b>Dat</b> is myn(e) vrou, <b>dat</b> is myn soen, un <b>dat</b> is myn huus.<br>
<b>That</b> is my wife, <b>that</b> is my son, and <b>that</b> is my house.<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This vagueness is the usual thing. But, see, the "my" part is specific, here feminine, masculine and neuter, in this order.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">However, let's assume there are several women, several boys and several houses (such as in a picture) and you need to answer the questions which of them is your wife, which is your son and which is your house, then you can use a demonstrative-colored (emphasized) personal pronoun in each case (for instance while pointing to each of them):</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Sie </b>ist meine Frau, <b>er </b>ist mein Sohn, und <b>das </b>(not <i>es</i>!) ist mein Haus.<br>
<b>Sey</b> is myn(e) vrou, <b>hey</b> is myn soen, un <b>dat</b> is myn huus.<br><b>She</b> is my wife, <b>he </b>is my son, and <b>that</b> (not "it"!) is my house.<br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In the non-applicability of "it" you can see that emphasis or demonstration is at play, in which case "it" is too "weak," because it is a neutral pronoun that is rarely used demonstratively. (It is used emphatically in phrases such as "That's exactly </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">it</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">!" and I guess some people might say "</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is what I mean" instead of the usual "</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">That</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is what I mean.")</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Non-emphatically, you may say in answer to the question "Who is </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">she</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">?":</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Sie </b>ist meine Frau.<br><b>Sey</b> is myn(e) vrou.<br><b>She</b> is my wife.<br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">But most people keep it simple and say:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Das </b>ist meine Frau.<br><b>Dat</b> is myn(e) vrou.<br><b>That</b>'s my wife.<br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Your wife said she would call you later, the phone rings while someone is in your office, and you say:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Das </b>ist meine Frau.<br><b>Dat</b> is myn(e) vrou.<br><b>That</b>'s/<b>It</b>'s my wife.<br>
</div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">My point is that this type of "that" does not modify the noun, that it is independent of the noun and its gender, although it refers to it.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What's the trouble?<br>The trouble? It's his wife. His <i>wife </i>is the trouble.<br><br>
Seine Frau ist das Problem.<br><b>Die</b> Frau ist immer <b>das</b> Problem.<br><b>Sie</b> ist <b>ein</b> <b>Besen</b>.<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">See what I mean?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Person</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ~ </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">persoon</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is feminine. So there! ;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Have I confused you more than you need to be?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Kumpelmenten,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br>
<br>