<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 09 July 2008 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:KarlRein@aol.com" target="_blank">KarlRein@aol.com</a></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (07) [E]<br><br></span><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#000000" face="Arial Unicode MS" size="3">
<div>About all this discussion of a singular pronoun of undetermined sex, I am
of the</div>
<div>age from when "he" was the required word according to school, and we
thought anyone</div>
<div>who said "they" etc. as in "Everybody must put down their pencils"
evoked</div>
<div>a tsk tsk from those of us who "knew better."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>But my wonderful college freshman English professor came up with evidence
of the</div>
<div>ridiculousness of following rules thoughtlessly: "He tells everyone he is
crazy," because</div>
<div>"everyone" must be referred to as "he" no matter what.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I would say that "I saw a person and they... (if er uh their sex is
unknown) IS the right</div>
<div>option. Sixty years ago I would have of course agreed with
Ivison.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Karl Reinhardt</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>In a message dated 7/8/2008 6:35:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank">lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM</a> writes:</div>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font style="background-color: transparent;" color="#000000" size="2">Saying
that All students brought their books" is even better for those avoiding
sexism.</font><br><font style="background-color: transparent;" color="#000000" size="2">So, I saw a person and they... is common but not the right
option.</font><br><br><font style="background-color: transparent;" color="#000000" size="2"> Ívison dos Passos
Martins.</font><br></div><font style="background-color: transparent;" color="#000000" size="2"><br>----------<br></font></blockquote></div></font><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Theo Homan</span> <span><<a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com" target="_blank">theohoman@yahoo.com</a>></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (05) [E]<br><br>
> From: Marsha Wilson <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:marshatrue@mtangel.net" target="_blank">marshatrue@mtangel.net</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (03) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> In the U.S., many of us would say, incorrectly,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> "they" ran down the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> street. More properly it would be "He or she"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> ran down the street.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Marsha Wilson</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> in sunny Oregon</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hello Marsha, and many others,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I understand that this casus is still scoring.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
We -scholars- have to solve this problem.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
And than we use the Greatest Common Divider:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
which letters do 'she' and 'he' have in common?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The letters 'e' and 'h'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
'He' it will be.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
vr. gr.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">Theo Homan</font><br><span><br>----------<br><br></span>From: <span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">jonny</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (05) [E]<br><br></span><div><span><font face="Courier New">Dear
Lowlanners,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">thanks a lot to all
your friendly answers regarding the gender of the English word
_person_.</font></span></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">Kevin took up my
whole sentence and wrote:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">> "I saw a tall <b>person</b>
with a black hat and a grey coat. They ran down the street to the left
side."</span></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
</div><div><span><font face="Courier New">And let me
pick up the comment of Arthur (F.-B.):</font></span></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#008080" face="Courier New">>
In these situations, a common get-out in English is to say "they", even if
there's only one of > them, since plurals have no gender. "They ran down the
street etc." Looked at logically, it </font></span></div>
<div><span><font color="#008080" face="Courier New">>
sounds a bit odd, I know, but it sounds quite normal in everyday
speech.</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><span><font face="Courier New">Arthurs point
out is representative for all of you: you don't really
feel comfortable with it, but it's in everyday use.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">Well- I've never
heard about this construction before, and never would have believed that it is
semi-legal, but it could bring some additional light upon my comprehension
of English in context with the Lowlandic languages. It's just one
of the results of different development.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">I'll never again
blame a German child just having started to learn English when it gets
confused with the difference of 'she' and 'they'... ;-) In German as well as in
LS the verb <u>always</u> shows you if you mean singular or
plural.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">English isn't at
all a language easy to rule- sometimes too similar to German, sometimes too
far from it! Would be interesting, Ingmar, how Dutch pupils get around with
this problem.</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left"><font face="Courier New">Allerbest!</font></div>
<font face="Courier New">Jonny
Meibohm</font><br><br><span>----------<br><br></span>From: <span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">jonny</span> <span class="lDACoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.08 (05) [E]<br><br></span><div><span><font face="Courier New">Beste
Reinhard,</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">thanks for your
answer and explanation of a demonstrative pronoun!</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font face="Courier New">You
wrote:</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><div class="Ih2E3d"><font color="#008080"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This kind of German </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">das</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> or Low Saxon </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dat</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, just like the English
equivalent </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">that</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in such constructions, is a
demonstrative pronoun that, less "demonstratively," can be substituted with
</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">es</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">it</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in German and English. (It
remains </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dat</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in Low Saxon dialects that have
lost </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">es</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> or </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">it</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">.) "Overuse" of this </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">das</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is typically North German,
owing to a Low Saxon substratum.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">This </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">das</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> / </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dat</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> / </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">that</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> does not modify the noun. It
</span><u style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">refers</u><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> to it, basically means "that
which you see there is ..." or "what you have there is ..." or something like
that.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></font>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#008080"><b>Das</b> scheint <b>'ne</b> ganz patente Person zu
sein!<br></font></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#008080"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">See? You're
using </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">'ne</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> for "a", which is
feminine.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></font>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font color="#008080"><b>That</b> seems to be <b>a</b> pretty smart person.</font></div>
</div><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#008080">..........</font></span></div></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><font color="#008080"><em>Person</em><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ~ </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">persoon</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> is feminine. So there!
;-)</span></font></font></div>
<div> </div>
</div><div><span><font face="Courier New">Yes, master,
Sir!</font></span></div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#008080" face="Courier New"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Have I confused you more than
you need to be?</span></font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
</div><div><span><font face="Courier New">No, master, Sir! I
remember my teacher in German grammar <u>not</u> having had the same patience
with me, about 45 years ago ;-)!</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left"><span><font face="Courier New">Kumpelmenten!</font></span></div>
<div align="left"> </div>
<font face="Courier New">Jonny
Meibohm</font><br><br><br><br><br><br>