<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">=========================================================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 14 July 2008 - Volume 05<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);"><a href="mailto:Heiko.evermann@gmx.de" target="_blank">Heiko.evermann@gmx.de</a></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.14 (01) [E]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> Dear Jonny, but you should know there is also a NEW Latin, without gender,<br>
> difficult verb conjungations, cases etc. and there you have that world<br>
> language you were talking about: Interlingua.<br>
> Check the site <a href="http://www.interlingua.com/" target="_blank">http://www.interlingua.com/</a><br>
<br>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Well, I had a look at </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://www.interlingua.com/" target="_blank">http://www.interlingua.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, read a bit and it hurts my</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
eyes. I have digged a bit further:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingua_grammar" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingua_grammar</a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Oh, no, what a mess compared to the nice, simple grammar of Esperanto.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The German Wikipedia lists 1500 speakers of interlingua, whereas Esperanto</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
passes the million.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Esperanto, too, does not have gender distinction, it does not have difficult</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
conjugations, it only has two cases (nominative and accusative) which allows</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
for a great flexibility of expression and it has a vocabulary that is easy to</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
understand plus it comes with a nice sysematic approach to word formation.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
If anyone ever needs a planned language, Esperanto is ready. The only drawback</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
is that the major players involved (like e.g.) the Americans, do not want a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
planned language.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hartlich Gröten,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Heiko</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:Heiko.evermann@gmx.de" target="_blank"><span class="HcCDpe"><span class="EP8xU" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Stan Levinson</span> <span class="lDACoc"><stlev99@yahoo.com></span></span></a><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="HcCDpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2008.07.14 (04) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
I'm no expert on Chinese, but actually there are a number of
'particles' that are quite effective in indicating verb aspect as
completed, as ongoing, as a continuing state, etc. So it's not like
they don't have complexity, they just don't have morphological
complexity.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Stan</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">> From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> Subject: Grammar</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> to a range of families. Among the Sino-Tibetan languages, for example,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> take the Chinese ones...</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> * Gender: none</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> * Plural: only in three personal pronouns</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> * Verb tense: none, except one particle expressing change and</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> another expressing progress</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> * Word inflection: none</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> As in the case of English, sentence structure is rigid because it</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> plays an important grammatical role.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Um... good point. Would it be possible to invent a grammar-sparse</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
language which still allowed a flexible sentence order, I wonder? Are</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
there any natural languages like that?</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I suppose it could be that the two principles conflict logically.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" color="#888888">
Sandy Fleming</font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" color="#888888">
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" color="#888888">----------</font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
Subject: Lexicon</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Sandy:</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></font></div>
<div style="margin-left: 80px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Um... good point. Would it be possible to invent a grammar-sparse<br>
language which still allowed a flexible sentence order, I wonder? Are<br>
there any natural languages like that?<br></div><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I have never come across any, and I doubt there are any.</span></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> At the very least, you need to distinguish subject from object, or else you don't know who does what to whom.</span></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
And you also need to distinguish indirect objects from direct objects
in many cases. Lack of morphological marking must be compensated for by
syntactic marking, i.e., syntactic slots serving as markers. I don't
know what other sort of device you'd use, except perhaps intonation,
and I guess that would be a type of morphological marking if it existed.</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Old English syntax is a lot more flexible than is Modern English
syntax, simply because the morphology came to be simplified so much.
Although not to quite the same extent, it applies to Old Norse and
Icelandic versus Modern Scandinavian, for instance, also to Old Frisian
versus Modern Frisian, Old Low Franconian versus Modern Dutch and
Afrikaans, and Old Saxon versus Low Saxon. Among the Germanic
languages, it seems to be only Icelandic, Faroese and German that
preserved most of its morphology and thus syntactic flexibility,
Yiddish probably a little less.</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
</span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Regards, </span></font><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Reinhard/Ron</span></font><br><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></font></div>
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>----------<br><br></span></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: Grammar<br><br>Hi, Stan!<br><br>Quite so, daddy-o! I alluded to that in one of my previous postings in this thread. At the moment I can only think of a change or completion indicator (了 <i>-liǎo</i> 'realize' > <i>-le</i>) and a progression indicator (着 <i>-zhāo</i> 'suffer' or <i>-zhù</i> 'show', 'prove' > <i>-zhe</i>) as Mandarin particles, well, and also the degree indicator (得 <i>-dé</i> 'get' > <i>-de</i>). I pretty much consider the rest auxiliary, modal or aspect verbs, if these ought not also be considered </span></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">such. All of them are verb-derived. The same principle holds true in the other Chinese languages. Verb modification of this sort is very common among the world's languages, is very refined in Turkic languages.<br>
<br>Cheers!<br>Reinhard/Ron</span></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">