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L O W L A N D S - L - 15 July 2008 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">-------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
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=========================================================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL" target="_blank">ingmar.roerdinkholder@WORLDONLINE.NL</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.07.14 (08) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Git-morgen oykh, khaveyrim,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I always wondered about the initial k- in Germany's Low Saxon "keen"...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
but now I see the Old and Middle Low Saxon examples with initial g-, it</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
shows that "keen" is a loan from High German. Low Saxon in the Netherlands</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
has "geen", "gin", "gien", "gain", as Dutch "geen".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Btw1 In several West Flemish and French Flemish dialect, a composed</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
construction with "en" as in French "ne ... pas" is still in use, as it</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
was in Middle Dutch. Something like "ik en weet niet" for Standard</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dutch "ik weet niet" I don't know.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Btw2 I thought Afrikaans had "g'n" not "geen", just like "'n" for</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Dutch "een".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Ingmar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Etymology<br><br>
Gut-morgn, tayerer khaver Leybl!<br><br>
I won't give you the actual answer, don't want to be accused of stealing<br>
folks' thunder, but I'll give you older equivalents of German *kein*,<br>
Yiddish קיין* keyn*, Low Saxon *keyn* (*keen*), Dutch *geen*, Afrikaans *<br>
geen* 'no ...', 'none'.<br><br>
Old German: dehein, deheinîg, neining, nihein, niheinîg, nohein, noheinîg<br>
Middle German: kein ('any', 'no ...', 'none'!)<br>
Old Saxon: gên, nên, nênig, nigên<br>
Middle Saxon: neyn, gyn<br>
Old Frisian: nânên, nên<br>
Old English: nǽnig; nán<br><br>
If nothing else, it tells you something about the timeline.<br><br>
Reinhard/Ron<br></div>
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<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: Etymology<br><br>Thanks, Inging!<br><br>I'm really glad Lee brought this up and you responded with that interesting question.<br><br>First of all, let me say that I think that the Old Saxon form <i>nigên</i> offers a crucial clue: *<i>nig</i>+</span></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><i>ên</i> "not one". The next clue is then Middle Saxon <i>gyn</i>, probably preceded by the intermediate step *<i>geyn</i>. So it's <i>[ni]g+eyn</i>.<br>
<br>Old Saxon <i>neowiht</i> 'not', 'nothing' (< basic *<i>ne</i> 'not') seems to have been reduced to <i>nig...</i> before a vowel, supposedly after elesion of <i>-t</i>. Old German has <i>niowiht</i> and earlier <i>ni wiht</i> for the same -- from <i>wiht</i> = "wight" ~ "aught" 'creature', 'being', '(little) thing' See also Old Dutch <i>niewiht</i>, Old East Frisian <i>nâwet, nâwit, nauwet, nauwit, naut, nôwet</i>, English "naught". So it might have started with something like "not (even) a little critter (> thing)".<br>
<br>How this pronoun became an adjective is another matter.<br><br>I always think of the dropping of the *<i>ni</i> *"no(t)" part as similar to what happened in French: <i>ne ... pas</i> > <i>pas</i> 'not', *<i>aucune personne</i>, <i>pas une personne</i> > <i>personne</i> 'nobody'.<br>
<br>Ingmar, as you probably know, Old German developed intervocalic /k/ to "h" which probably was pronounced much like Modern German "ch" ([ç] ~ [x]). I suspect that <i>nihein</i> ("not+one") came to be reanalyzed as /nik+ein/ when dropping of the /ni.../ part became a possibility, or, to look at it in a different way, </span></font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">[ç] ~ [x] cannot make syllable onsets.<br>
<br>German <i>kein</i> then "inspired" Low Saxon <i>keyn</i> which in many or most dialects took the place of native <i>geyn</i> ~ <i>gyn</i>.<br><br>Lee, I believe that קיין <i>keyn</i> goes clear back to Old Yiddish. This would be consistent with <i>kein</i> *[kʰɛɪn] in Middle German from which, as a result of an antisemitic surge and ghettoization, Yiddish initially developed (probably in conjunction with earlier Judeo-German, i.e., Old and Middle German with Judeo-specific lexical items, more a "jargon," if you will). <br>
<br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br></span></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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