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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 August 2008 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:caennmohr@aol.com">caennmohr@aol.com</a></span></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.08.28 (03)
[E</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I have just
returned to lowlands after an absence of several years, and it is a delight to
be back! I am a bit rusty on procedures, however, and although I suspect
this posting may belong in a different thread since it veers down a side
street, as it were, I will post it and await your judgment on where -- or if --
it belongs.<br>
<br>
With respect to the mention of Geordie and Glaswegian as virtually
unintelligible to most people outside the British Isles,
my husband, who is Glaswegian, was brought up speaking a very
"proper" form of English, and even he cannot understand true
Glaswegian. We were discussing this thread, and and I was tracing some of
the sound shifts from German to Scots to English, and his comment was that some
of the origins of both Geordie and Glaswegian are often attributed to the
workers in the heavy industries -- especially shipbuilding -- developing a type
of slurred shorthand patois that could easily be shouted over the din of the
clanging machines to communicate with one's mates.<br>
<br>
Carolyn<span style="background: rgb(255, 255, 102) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> [Wood]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
<span style="color: black;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Language varieties<br>
<br>
Hello, Carolyn! <br>
<br>
Welcome back on the List, and congratulations on your debut as a
"poster" (which it is, I believe)!<br>
<br>
As for the rules and guidelines, you can refresh your memory here:
<a href="http://lowlands-l.net/rules.php">http://lowlands-l.net/rules.php</a><br>
<br>
I don't know a whole lot about it, though I worked with a grumpy
"Weegie" old-timer in Australia and got my baptism with fire then.
Some people could not understand him at all, and he is known to have given some
people written notes, because after over twenty years in the country his "Weegie
patter" was still "the best English" he could manage. He had a
short temper, so he barked and tended to run off in a huff when people said
they could not understand him. He would often mumble what I later learned were
Weegie swearwords (such as "aw' bawbag tha'") in reference to such
people. Only one person in the team, an Englishman, could understand him
perfectly, and he said that that was because he had lived in Glasgow for a
good while.<br>
<br>
As far as I can tell -- and I'm not the authority here, as I said -- the problem
with understanding Glaswegian is that it is simply not English, that it is
basically working-class Glasgow Scots with Scottish English and Irish English
adstrata. So in my book it is not even a type of English as Missingsch is a
type of German (on Low Saxon substrata), but it is a type of Scots with
specific English influences and a "sophisiticated slang" system. Since Glasgow is so
important an urban center, people elswhere, not only in Scotland but throughout the UK, encounter
it at least occasionally. And this takes us back to the days when the official
line still was that Scots was "slang," i.e. a type of
"vulgar" or "debased" English. Well, it ain't no English,
at least no Modern English, and that's official now. This is very similar to
the situation in which Low Saxon was still seen as a type of low-prestige
German and people therefore expected to understand it. German speakers that are
exposed to it for a good deal of time but cannot use it themselves can
understand some of it; newcomers understand very little, if anything.<br>
<br>
I just looked up what our own Andy Eagle wrote about Glaswegian
(<a href="http://scots-online.org/grammar/glasgow.htm">http://scots-online.org/grammar/glasgow.htm</a>). Here is the beginning:</span></span></p>
<h4 style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Glasgow</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> Scots</span></h4>
<p class="text" style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Fondly known as 'the Patter', Glaswegian is spoken in the
city itself and well established in the surrounding towns such as Clydebank,
Paisley, Renfrew and Rutherglen, and increasingly gaining influence around the
Firth of Clyde in Cambeltown, Dumbarton, Gourock, Greenock and Rothesay. An
east Lanarkshire variety is spoken in Airdrie, Coatbridge,
Cumbernauld, Denny, Motherwell, Strathaven and Wishaw. An Ayrshire variety is
spoken in Carstairs, Irvine, Kilmarnock,
Leadhills and Prestwick. </span></p>
<p class="text" style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Like all urban dialects Glaswegian suffers from a loss of
much particularly Scots vocabulary, though very innovative at coining new terms
e.g. boggin, malkie, stotter, bampot and heidbanger, many becoming quite
widespread.The pronunciation of Glasgow Scots is essentially <a href="http://scots-online.org/grammar/wcscots.htm" type="text/javascript: ">west
central Scots</a>. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Andy's
description reminds me of Hamburg Low Saxon: it lost much
particularly Low Saxon vocabulary and uses a good number of German calques (i.e. loan
translations) instead.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
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