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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 August 2008 - Volume 02<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Diederik Masure</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (01) [E]</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">>>More
importantly in Hamburg Missingsch, unlike both SG and LS, I would say <i>Der is
tot gegangen</i> ("that one has gone dead," a somewhat <br>
>>childish-sounding equivalent of <i>Der is gestorben</i>). (The closest
LS equivalent of this seems to be <i>De is mit Dood afgahn</i> "<i>He</i>
has gone off <br>
>>with Death".)<br>
>><br>
>>Reinhard/Ron</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">In Dutch this
is a very normal construction, doodgaan ('to go dead'), 'ik ga dood' (I'm
dieing!) Van roken ga je dood (smoking kills, litt. from smoking you go dead)
etcetera; without any childish feeling to it</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Greetings,
Diederik</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">----------</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (02) [E/LS]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">It's not
Missingsch but in my Lonerland Limburgish it is standard to say.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">"Hië
es dowd bleve".</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">E.g.
"Hië es dowd bleve in den orlog" "He has died during the
war", </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">almost, but
not necessarely, in a sense "The war killed him"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">"Blijven"
is one of the verbs forming a participle without ge- suffix.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Roger<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mike Morgan</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:mwmosaka@gmail.com">mwmosaka@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (02) [E/LS]</span><br>
<br>
R/R wrote,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">One of the reasons why I am
interested in these expressions is that they remind me very much of the use of
certain verbs in the Altaic, especially Turkic languages. (Not that I think
there's a direct link, though.) Among the Turkic ones are <i>qal-</i> ("to
remain"), <i>kät-</i> ("to go") and <i>tart-</i> ("to drag
(into)") which as ordinary or auxiliary verbs come to connote resulting
permanent or temporary states, each with different shades of meaning.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">And, of
course, similar "grammaticalization" of these or similar terms is
found elsewhere. Japanese, for instance, has it of course: e.g. ame ga
futte kimasita. (though one MIGHT argue that Jpanese is an Altaic language
... though I myself remain quite agnostic); even English has it (though perhaps
only as idiom): e.g. My bag went missing. Perhaps, impressionistically, go and
come are the most common, remain is still fairly common ... and drag (into)
(and similarly semantically highly specified verbs) are found only
sproadically. (That is, any specific semantic term is foudn in a few languages,
and another languages has its own peculiar verbs it choses to use.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">PS Have
just spent a marvelous week in one of the ancestral homelands (gwlad 'yn
nhadau) with my wife, and now have 2 weeks plus work at UCLan, Preston
Lancashire before returning to Bombay. If I didn't know what UK weather was
like I would have thought that I brought the monsoons with me from india, but,
I think the rains were here before I came and will still be here after I leave.
Wet or not, Cymru is as beautiful as I remember from my last visit ... 27 years
ago??</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
Mike || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">マイク</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">माईक</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">|| Мика || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Shruti;" lang="GU">માઈક</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="GU"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">|| </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Sylfaen;">მაიქ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Raavi;" lang="PA">ਮਾਈਕ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="PA"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">|| </span><span dir="rtl" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HE">מייק</span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span> || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Latha;" lang="TA">மாஇக்</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="TA"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">|| <span dir="rtl" lang="AR-SA">ما یک</span><br>
================<br>
Dr Michael W Morgan<br>
Managing Director<br>
Ishara Foundation<br>
Mumbai (Bombay), India<br>
++++++++++++++++<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">माईकल</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">मोर्गन</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> (</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">पी</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI">.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">एच</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI">.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">डी</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI">.)</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">मेनेजिंग</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">डॉयरेक्टर</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">ईशारा</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">फॉउंडेशन</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> (</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">मुंबई</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> )</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
++++++++++++++++<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">茂流岸マイク</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">(</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">言語学博士</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">)<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">イシャラ基金の専務理事</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: PMingLiU;" lang="ZH-CN">・</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">事務局長</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">ムンバイ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">(</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">ボンベイ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">)</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">、インド</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Soenke
Dibbern</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:s_dibbern@web.de">s_dibbern@web.de</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (02) [E/LS]</span><br>
<br>
Op Sa., den 30. Aug.'08, hett Lowlands-L List Klock 21.07 schreven:<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Idiomatica</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Usage in
Missingsch of 'Der is tot geblieben' derived from Low Saxon<br>
'He is doodbläven' 'He (has) died.'<br>
<br>
I do know that there are quite a few sorts of Missingsch and that they are now
moribund (which makes it hard to verify many descriptions). Also, I am
most certainly familiar with the Low Saxon expression and use it myself
(literally "He has remained dead", alternative to He is sturven 'He
(has) died' = German Er ist gestorben). However, I have never come across this
expression in any type of Missingsch or any other type of Northern German with
which I'm familiar, and I'm somewhat sceptical about the authenticity.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
In Dithmarschen you may well hear "Er/Der ist totgebleiben" in
normal/casual "Standard" German conversation. But I'm not sure
whether there's any type of Missingsch involved here, it just seems to be an
oral device used when people want to avoid the full earnestness of the
appropriate SG expression "Er ist gestorben". So no question of LS, Missingsch
or SG here, but one of different registers within one language/regiolect (SG).
(Of course, if you do use "totbleiben", everybody will know that you
have a connection to LS, with all social implications.)<br>
<br>
From: M.-L. Lessing <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de" target="_blank">marless@gmx.de</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.08.30 (01) [E]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I have
never heard "Er is tot geblieben". In High German and Missingsch,<br>
this would sound very strange, ...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
Yes, and so it did to my ears, when I first heard this expression in a
"Standard" German conversation. I asked my father whether there was a
difference between "totbleiben" and "sterben", and, after a
moment of puzzlement, he just smiled and said "Wenn een 'sterben' will,
bruukt he Abituur." (If somebody wants to 'sterben', he is required to
take his A-Levels/High School diploma), which left me with even more questions
in my then 7-9 years old head. The terms were apparently freely interchangeable
to him.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Sönke<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
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