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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 September 2008 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">E Zinsser</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.08 (02)
[E]</span><br>
<br>
Hi all, <br>
<br>
Yes, Paul, the Bible was only translated in Afrikaans in 1933 and so the
language in which it was written was referred to as 'Hoog Hollands' by the
old folks, meaning 'proper' Dutch to distinguish it from 'Cape
Dutch'. My parents (who both hailed from the Cape)
seldom <br>
used this term except within historical context.<br>
<br>
I grew up in the low-class southern Johannesburg
suburbs and a mixed Afrikaans/English was spoken by those for whom
neither English or Afrikaans was their first language, i.e.
the Nassifs from Lebanon,
the Geordanos from Italy, old
Mr Faros from Cairo, the Segedis from Hungary and the Greek shop owner from Cyprus. <br>
<br>
I suspect the people in Danville
were/are not that good in English and it is always easy to
assume people speak a mixed tongue if they use bits of your
language in their language to make you feel at ease and them less
uneducated. <br>
<br>
We had friends whose mother could not speak English and she refused to
pretend that she was in any way interested to try. She would have long
discussions in Afrikaans with my dead husband's German mother, who
would fume for not being able to showcase her German, French and
English abilities. Nothing is more entertaining than to
see plaas poise winning over small town snobbery
:-) <br>
<br>
Elsie Zinsser</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From:
<span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.07 (04)[E]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 5pt 0in 12pt 60pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From:
Elsie Zinsser <<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za" target="_blank">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.06 (05) [E]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 59.75pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Hi all, </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 59.75pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 60pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Arthur,we do not refer to a Hoë or a Lae Afrikaans. However the
teaching variety is referred to as 'Standaard Afrikaans' to distinguish it
from"Streekstaal" varieties or dialectical variations. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 59.75pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Elsie Zinsser </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt 59.75pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Hi
Elsie, </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 59.75pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I seem to recall the term "high" being used by some
people to distinguish the type of Dutch used in some versions of the Bible
-"High Dutch". </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 60pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Mark,</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">The
70s happen to coincidewith my time in SA (early 75 - end of 79). It was
commonly held that inplaces like Danville (Pretoria) and some
Jo'burg southern suburbs,the language was a sort of "Englikaans",
though I never heard anyconvincing evidence myself. </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">However
I remember workingin East London where little Afrikaans was spoken ("You
live in Pretoria?
how dounderstand them Afrikaners?"). Yet their English was
punctuated withAfrikaans expressions - "jy weet?", "nee,
man" and mostsentences ended with "ek se" (can't do the
circumflex accent). </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Paul
Finlow-Bates </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">E Zinsser</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.08 (02)
[E]</span><br>
<br>
Hi all, <br>
<br>
Paul, more Afrikaans/EnglishAfrikaans include:<br>
<br>
-Ja, no, well, fine ('whatever') <br>
-Hoesit (how's it?) <br>
-Ja, nee <br>
-Swaer ('bro', 'dude')<br>
<br>
and of course many profanities such as k*k (faeces). <br>
<br>
I've recently seen an upsurge of Afrikaans forms in some
English newspapers in cases where government is reprimanded, for
instance 'they better remove their oogklappe' (The Star).<br>
<br>
This mode of using Afrikaans as preferred language
for negative discourse was quite typical between the 1970s and
1990s and used to great effect by white non-Afrikaans speakers to
make racist remarks at blacks. <br>
<br>
Elsie</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From:
<span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.07 (04)[E]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">However I
remember workingin East London where little Afrikaans was spoken ("You
live in Pretoria?
how dounderstand them Afrikaners?"). Yet their English was
punctuated withAfrikaans expressions - "jy weet?", "nee,
man" and mostsentences ended with "ek se" (can't do the
circumflex accent). </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Paul Finlow-Bates </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: Language varieties<br>
<br>
Elsie,<br>
<br>
"Ja, nee" ("Yes, no") is also a common expression in Low
Saxon and in Northern German.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mark Dreyer</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.08 (02)
[E]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Paul:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject: LL-L
"Language varieties"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You said:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">
The 70s happen to coincide with my time in SA (early 75 - end of 79). It
was commonly held that in places like Danville (Pretoria) and some
Jo'burg southern suburbs, the language was a sort of "Englikaans",
though I never heard any convincing evidence myself.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">
However I remember working in East London where little Afrikaans was spoken
("You live in Pretoria?
how do understand them Afrikaners?"). Yet their English was
punctuated with Afrikaans expressions - "jy weet?", "nee,
man" and most sentences ended with "ek se" (can't do the
circumflex accent).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I won't
challenge that thesis you quote in para 1, as long as the proponent
accepts that the speaker of 'Englikaans' is capable in appropriate context of
turning. to formal English or Afrikaans. I would exclude from this thesis only
technical terminology & jargon in either language beyond the speaker's ken.
Some academics, it seems to me, are too willing to accredit too much stupidity
to the man on the ground. The peasant <strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">can</span></strong> be presumed to speak better than he may.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I know what
you mean (para 2) & it isn't just the sturdy peonry of East
London. I have heard students of Wits engaged in a heated
discussion of the curriculum with their lecturer. Their language was peppered
with Afrikaaans, & as the debate progressed it got meatier. I happen to
know that none of the conversants were Afrikaans-speaking, hoegenaamd (politics
dating back to their parents' generation).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Van die os op die esel: Elsie, ek gee toe u opmerking betreffende
die <strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">formele</span></strong> gebruik
van die uitdrukking 'Hogere Afrikaans', maaar, onse fynproewer van die
suiderlike streektale, u moes selfs telkens die uitdrukking in informele
verband gehoor het - of hoe?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Die Uwe,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
</div>