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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 September 2008 - Volume 03<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Orthography" 2008.09.20 (02) [E]</span><br>
<br>
> From: Andy Eagle <<a href="mailto:andy@scots-online.org">andy@scots-online.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Orthography [S]<br>
><br>
> Hou's aw?<br>
<br>
Ay', no' ba'd, y'e ken'! Hou's yerse'l?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
> What I'm interested in are occurences that you may have come across<br>
> where the apostrophe simply makes no sense what so ever.<br>
><br>
> One I once saw on a flower seller's bike in Edinburgh was Bonnie<br>
> floo'ers rather than flooers orflouers (flowers). Have any you come<br>
> accross others? I'm trying to find examples.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I've seen
the antrin scrieve whaur a body'll pit a apostrophe at the end<br>
o a word for nae ither raeson but that it's a Scots word. I canna gie ye<br>
ony acual examples juist aff the luif, but it happens whaur the writer's<br>
pittin doun mair English than Scots an wull write something like, "I<br>
thought I'd take a turn about the auld' place and see if I still knew<br>
anybody."<br>
<br>
Sandy Fleemin<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Orthography<br>
<br>
Hi, Andy! Good to hear from you.<br>
<br>
I don't have answers and examples, though similar examples are aplenty in Low Saxon
of Germany with reference to German spelling.<br>
<br>
But thoughts and comments I do have, as usual, and the devil's advocate is
never far away.<br>
<br>
The usual question is "Phonemic or etymological?" (leaving aside
attempts at making standard orthographies phonetic). The two
approaches don't yield identical results, and etymology along with 15th-century orthography tends to dominate in
the "Anglic" world. In either cases, orthographic devices used in
predominant English are "naturally" used in the sister languages
Scots and (Southern) Northumbrian. And therein lies the problem, because English devices
are used inconsistently, each signalling various readings. <br>
<br>
To lessen the "mess," you could and perhaps should regularize the
spelling in Scots by at least partly "phonemicizing" the system in
that you use a given English-derived device consistently for the same phoneme.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the type of system you are shooting
for.<br>
<br>
I totally agree that in most cases the use of the apostrophe is non-sensical
where it refers to <i>English</i> standards. It can be justified only if it
stands for elesions in Scots itself. Writing <i>-in'</i> for <i>-in</i> (=
English <i>-ing</i>) is <i>never</i> justifiable since in Scots it <i>never</i>
alternates with the "ing" sound.<br>
<br>
Enter examples like <i>ca'</i> for what you write <i>caw</i> (or <i>caa</i>) [k</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;">ɑ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">:] 'call', and <i>fu'</i> for what you write <i>fou</i> 'full'. (I wonder if <i>fu'</i> is meant to show that the pronunciation is not as in
"few" but as in "foo" [fu:].) Your spelling is consistent
with the spelling in other words such as <i>house</i> [hu(:)s] 'house' you and
Sandy have been using, although in your dictionary
(<a href="http://www.scots-online.org/dictionary/">http://www.scots-online.org/dictionary/</a>) you're still spell it the
conventional way: <i>hoose</i>.<br>
<br>
Enter the devil's advocate. This treatment of etymological <i>-ll</i> would fall in the category of trying to spell phonetically rather than either phonemically or etymologically. Why? In
most instances there are alternations in which the underlying /-l/
"re"-appears, such as in <i>caw</i> [k</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;">ɑ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">:] ~ <i>callin</i>
[ 'k</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;">ɑ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">ɫ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">en] 'call' ~
'calling', and <i>pou</i> [pu:] ~ <i>pullin</i> [</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">'p</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">ʊɫ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">en] (~ [</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">'p</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">ʌɫ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">en]) 'pull' ~ pulling'. Final /l/ is absorbed by and
lengthens the preceding vowel. <br>
<br>
In other words, I'm suggesting that, unless you want to spell
"phonetically" for the Sasanach, the final /l/ ought to be written as
such, because a Scots-specific phonological rule requires final /l/ to be
"deleted" but otherwise pronounced, thus, e.g.<br>
<br>
<i>call ~ callin</i> (rather than <i>caw ~ callin</i>)<br>
<i>pull ~ pullin</i> (rather than <i>pou ~ pullin</i>)<br>
<i>fall ~ fallin</i> (rather than <i>faw ~ fallin</i>)<br>
<i>small ~ smaller</i> (rather than <i>smaw ~ smaller</i>)<br>
<i>troll ~ trollin</i> (rather than <i>trowe ~ trollin</i> 'to troll', 'to
trundle')<br>
<br>
Where there is no such alternation, you have to decide if you want to go by
sound or by etymology; e.g.<br>
<br>
<i>aw</i> or <i>all</i><br>
<i>haw</i> or <i>hall</i><br>
<i>staw</i> or <i>stall<br>
baw or ball<br>
waw</i> or <i>wall</i><br>
<i>fou</i> or <i>full</i> (~ <i>fuller</i>?)<br>
<i>gou</i> or <i>gull<br>
bou</i> or <i>bull</i><br>
<i>trowe </i>or <i>troll </i>('troll' noun)<br>
<br>
It doesn't matter if etymology and the convenience of the Sasanach are
disregarded.<br>
<br>
In some cases, the shift / > <i>w</i> has sunk to the phonemic level, and
the "ll" spelling would not be appropriate; e.g.<br>
<br>
<i>row</i> [r</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "MS Gothic";">ʌʊ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">] ~ <i>row</i>in ['r</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "MS Gothic";">ʌʊ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">en] 'roll' ~ 'rolling'<br>
(cf. also <i>rowie</i> ['r</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "MS Gothic";">ʌʊ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">i] 'bread roll')<br>
<br>
What say you?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>
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