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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 October 2008 - Volume 03<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><br>
From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <<a href="mailto:Kreimer@jpberlin.de">Kreimer@jpberlin.de</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.10.20 (01) [LS/G]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Anm 17.10.2008 ümme 22:58 froig Marlou Lessing:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;" lang="DE">Is there any better way to say "jener, jene,
jenes" op Platt?</span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Dag Marlou un alle,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">nau miinem gissen kümt hd. "jener, jene, jenes"
uut dem sülwigen germansken un aultsassesken stamwaart un was nich der
haugdüütsken metluutverscheywing unnerworpen. Et lut alsau auk inm nigsassesken
nig (tominnest nig viel) anners, vellicht en bietken kötter
uutspruoken; men mag dat auk "jenner, jenne, jennet"
schriiwen:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">"jener, jene und jenes sind auch hochdeutsch"
segt Klöntrup (1824, Niederdeutsch-Westfälisches Wörterbuch), u. a. "an
jenem Dage = am jüngsten Gericht", "jent 1)jenes 2) dort"
"jensid(s)" u. "giensids = jenseits". </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Vanm orsprunk hangt dat wual met gotisk
"jains", aengl. "geon", aisl. "inn" tosammen (lt.
Duden, Herkunftswörterbuch). Wiitere belegge unnen dran ehänkt.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">As in vielen Fällen, waar de waarde nich vanner
metluutverscheywing bedruopen wassen, gift dat ninnen alstogrouden ünnerscheyt
tüsken dem middelsassesken un dem middelhaugen düütsk.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Goutgaun - un for Reinhard beste verhaaling!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">joachim</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Köbler, Gerhard, Neuhochdeutsch-germanisches Wörterbuch</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">jener</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">: germ.
? <i>*ena</i>, germ.?, Pron.: nhd. der, jener?; <i>*hÆna?</i>, germ.?, Pron.:
nhd. jener; <i>*jaina-</i>, *jainaz, *jena-, *jenaz, germ., Demon.-Pron.: nhd.
der, jener </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><a href="http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/%7Ec30310/aswbhinw.html" target="_blank">http://homepage.uibk.ac.at/~c30310/aswbhinw.html</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Lübben, Mittelniederdeutsches Handwörterbuch:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">----------------------------------------------------------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">jene (jenne, jonne, gene, gone), jener.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">jene-halve, gênhalf, jenseits.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">jenewise == jenegewise, irgendwie.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">jenich (jennich, enich), irgend einer,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">aliquis; mit man verbunden jenichman.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">jenigerleie, irgend welcher Art.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">jen- (gen-, gin-, gon-, gun)sît, jenseits.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Schiller/Lübben, Mittelniederdeutsches Handwörterbuch:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><a href="http://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/drw-cgi/zeige?db=dig&darstellung=v&index=buecher&term=Schiller-Luebben+II&seite=g406-407" target="_blank">http://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/drw-cgi/zeige?db=dig&darstellung=v&index=buecher&term=Schiller-Luebben+II&seite=g406-407</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><br>
---------<br>
<br>
From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <<a href="mailto:Kreimer@jpberlin.de">Kreimer@jpberlin.de</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2008.10.20 (02) [LS/E]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">"Et wassen twe kunigeskinner" </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">[There were two kings's children
- "wassen" elder LS plural form?]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Dag auk, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">mag siin, dat de frauge for Ju tou sünnerlik for dat
westfälske schiint, man düt is vellicht auk van bedüüdenge for de historiske
grammatiske entwickelenge van de Sassesken spauken.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Ik bin jünkst wiider up dat leyd van de "Twey
Küoningskinder" stot, wat wi up de höigere schoul inm Düütsk-underricht
düürnuomen hewwet. Un da is mi nu nich blaut upfallen, dat et daar
"künigeskinner" heyt un nich "küoningskinner" as inm
Westfälsken vandaage (dat geyt üöwereen met de algemeene westfälske
diphtongeerenge),</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">=> man auk dat de eerste riige met "Et
wassen" un nich "Et wöören" anfankt [there were]. Ik hewwe dat
ichtenswan al maul as fuorm for den pluralis praeteriti van
"siin/wiäsen" in mönsterländiske texten van hüütigertiid liäsen.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Meystens bügt me dat "siin" in der
vergaunentiit hüütigendaags:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">ik was, du wöörst, he... was, wi... wöören</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Nu weytet wi van Agathe Laasch (Mnd. Grammatik), dat sik
al to middelniiderdüütske tiit optativ-fuormen van de tiitwaarde [verbs] in de
indikativ-fuormen inneslieken hewwet. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Daarümme frauge ik mi up grund van de
"künigeskinner" nu, of dat nich orsprünklik anners wiäsen is, nämlik:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">indikativ praeteritum:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">ik was, du wast, he... was, wi... wassen <span style=""> </span>[I was, you were, he... was, we... were]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">optativ praeteritum:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">ik wööre, du wöörst, he... wöör(e), wi... wöören. <span style=""> </span>[would have been]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Un wan dat sau wiäsen siin sölde, dan konde dat auk for
annere verben inm praeteritum gelten, t. B.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">ik kwam, du kwamst, wi kwammen, <span style=""> </span>[I... came]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">opt.: ik kwaim, du kwaimst, wi kwaimen. <span style=""> </span>[would have come]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">ik gaf, du gafst, wi gaffen, <span style=""> </span>[I... gave]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">opt.: ik gaif, du gaifst, wi gaiwen.<span style=""> </span>[would have
given]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">(opt. praes.: ik giewe, du giewest, wi giewen)<span style=""> </span>[would give]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Miine frauge is hier nu:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">=?=> gift et in anderen van't auldsasseske herkuomenen
spauken eene liike updeyleng von fuormen up indikativ und optativ der
vergaunentiit ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">[=?=> Are there similar differentiations of indicative
and optative forms in the preteritum in other Saxon-derived languages?]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Met echt-westfälsken grüeten,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">joachim</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">PS.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Tougiewen, inm veerden verske van dat leyd het et dan
wual</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">"de Lüde wören alle so fro",</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">waar me "de Lüde wassen..." verwachten
wöörde,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">dar me nau nau dem "Et wassen" in de
eersten riige eegentlik auk "wassen" erwarten droffde, man
dat kan auk eerst laater sau ümmedichtet worden siin. De eerste riige is
wahrschiinlik - as auk de schriifwiis - na vanm middelnidderdüütsken priäget.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Hier de eersten veer stroufen van dem leyde:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">- den heylen text sü: -</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><a href="http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/%7Estrunk/Deutsch/twekueni.htm" target="_blank">http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/~strunk/Deutsch//twekueni.htm</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><a href="http://ingeb.org/Lieder/etwassen.html" target="_blank">http://ingeb.org/Lieder/etwassen.html</a> (met
üöwersettenge in't Haugdüütske)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><a href="http://www.bouwebrouwer.nl/gedichten/twee_koninghskindren.html" target="_blank">http://www.bouwebrouwer.nl/gedichten/twee_koninghskindren.html</a> (Nederlandse
versie) </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Uutsnitt as text:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">T W E K Ü N I G E S K I N N E R</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE"> </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">F O L K S W I I S E U U T D E M M Ö N S T E
R L A N D E </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">S C H R I F T L I K E R W Ä H N T 1 5 4 0 *<span style=""> </span>*Sü
G. Forster, Der andere Theil, Liedlein III </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">In der westfälsken Lesaart nau Echtermeyer/van Wiese(1)<span style=""> </span>1 Deutsche Gedichte ..., Düsseldorf
1960 </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">2008 nigge ruutgiewen van Joachim Kreimer-de Fries</span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">Et wassen twe Künigeskinner, </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">de hadden enanner so lef, </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">de konnen to nanner nich kummen, </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">dat Water was vil to bred.</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE"> </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">"Lef Herte, kannst du der(2) nich swemmen? <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>2 der – tonlos gesprochen, im
Volksmund oft </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">gebraucht, um die Rede zu beleben; </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">lef Herte, so swemme to mi! </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">ick will die twe Keskes(3) upstecken <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>3 Kerzen </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">un de sölld löchten to di." </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">Dat horde ne falske Nunne </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">up ere Slopkammer, o we! </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">Se dei de Keskes utdömpen(4) — <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>4 auslöschen </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">lef Herte blef in de Se. </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">Et was up en Sunndage Morgen, </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">de Lüde wören alle so fro, </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">nich so des Küniges Dochter, </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">de Augen de seten er to(5) . <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span>5 die Augen saßen ihr zu, waren
vor Weinen </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica;" lang="DE">... usw. 16 wiitere verske.</span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"><br>
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<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
Dank Di, beste Joachim, ook för de Wünschen. Mien Bäternis hett gode Spood. Tominnst
is de Wehdaag' nich mehr so asig un ik krieg' mehr Slaap. Man mang de Minschen gah ik noch nich geern mit
de Pocken un den Baard (kann mi nich raseern) ...<br>
<br>
„Günt", „güntsieds" un „jenne(r)" kannst ook in't Noordsassische bruken, man „jenne(r)"
is vundagigendaags asig oldfranksch, booksprakig. „De/dat daar", as upnöömt vun
us Marlou, is nu in de mehrsten Dialekten dat Gägenstück.<br>
<br>
Old „weer" un „was" konkureert noch dialektsch in de Eentall. Beid' hebbt se de nu Mehrtallform
„weren" ~ „weern". In öllere Tieden weern se noch heel un deel apart, un „was" harr de Mehrtallform
„wassen".<br>
<br>
Grötens un Kumpelmenten,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>
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