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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 October 2008 - Volume 02<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net">Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.20 (08) [E]</span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">re: </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Reinhard
wrote: Low Saxon has <i>verswinnen</i>, <i>swinnen</i> and some dialects also <i>dwinnen</i>,
older ones <i>verdwynen</i> for 'disappear'.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Hello Heather
and Ron:. Verdwijnen from dwinnen,,, OK but how about the English to dim the
lights, Dutch "dimmen" ?</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">And yes Heather,
the particle "ver-" in front of a verb often means " utterly/total like slapen
- verslapen is to sleep-to oversleep and vallen – vervallen is to fall – to
dilapidate (if that could be a verb in English) but kopen is to buy, verkopen
is to sell.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Greetings,
Jacqueline</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">PS. Heather,
Don't you love those moles. A couple brought me back a small silver teaspoon that
my kids had taken outside to play some thirty five years ago! For that I
forgive them a couple of moles heaps. J.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">PS!! RON, I hope
the antibiotics are starting to work by now. There is nothing as bad as an itch
that you can't scratch. Houd je taai! J.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.20 (10) [E]</span><br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Take for instance *tumble*, a frequentive derivative of Old
English /tumb-/ (/tumbian/) 'to dance about'; related to German /tumelen/ >
/taumeln/ 'to reel', /tummeln/ 'to mill about', Dutch /tuimelen/ 'to tumble',
Low Saxon /tummeln/ ~ /tümmeln/ 'to mill about'. Since German has both a short
and a long variant and Dutch has one with a long vowel (u > ui), I believe
that there was no /b/ there to begin with.<br>
<br>
As an aside, what I find interesting about this particular group is that German
has a /t-/ here rather than the expected /z-/ (ts-), which leads me to wonder
if in German we are dealing with a very early loan from Saxon or from Early Low
or Middle Franconian -- i.e. a loan that entered the language /after/
affricatization (p > pf, t > ts, k > kx > x).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">The group of words definitely has a history of loaning, but
I think it is just a Low to High loan. According to my etymological dictionary 'taumeln'
is from ie. *dheu-, *dheuə (to stir, to whirl) with m-formant. But that would
not explain why there was no affricatization (well, if West Germanic had a
front d, German would have front t, but then Low Saxon should have d and not
t). Grimm says in his entry 'tummeln/dummeln' that there are not only forms
beginning with t- but also with d-. But this forms are not found in Low Saxon
but mostly in German. Under the entry 'taumeln' Grimm connects it with a
Romance word 'tumer'. So a French loan. But then Grimm disagrees with himself
under the entry 'tummeln' and says, that Romanists believe that the Romance
word is derived from Germanic. Under the entry 'tummeln/tümmeln' Grimm says the
word is onomatopoetic in character. Perhaps that's the best explanation. It's a
onomatopoetic formation and spread to different languages with the travelling entertainers
(Gauklerwesen) as suggested by Grimm under the entry 'taumeln'. That would also
explain why the word is the same in Low Saxon and German. Onomatopoetic words
are in many cases exempt from sound changes.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Marcus Buck</span><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jonny</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.21 (01) [E]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Beste Reinhard,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">you wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">kindle</span></strong><b><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br>
</span></b><span style="font-family: Arial;">I connect it with Low Saxon</span><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> Kien</span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> and German <i>Kien</i> (> <i>Kienholz</i>)
'kindling' < 'small, split-off piece of wood'; cf. Old English <i>cēn</i>;
cf. <i>cīnan</i> 'to split' (intr.); it then underwent semantic expansion to
"to kindle" in the sense of "to light (fire)", hence
"kindling" being wood for starting fire.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Could German
_zündeln_ (E 'to play with fire', LS 'pesern'/'pösern') be another
descendant of this family? Though GRIMM connects it with G 'Zunder' (see also
LS 'Tünteldous', literally E 'tinder box'), which we find in English e.g. as
'cinder' and 'tinder'.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">But I don't
understand this one:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">stumble</span></strong><span style="font-family: Arial;"> < Germanic *<i>stam-</i>; cf.
"stammer", German <i>stumm</i> 'silent' < 'dumb'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">Isn't _stumble_
a verbum, meaning 'stolpern' in German, in LS 'snubbeln' or 'stubbeln'?? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">And I have got
another offer for this one:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">bramble</span></strong><span style="font-family: Arial;"> < Old English <i>bræmbel </i><<i> bræmel </i><
Germanic *<i>bræmaz</i> 'thorny bush' > "broom"; cf. Dutch <i>braam</i>,
Low Saxon <i>Braam</i> 'Scotch broom', Low Saxon <i>Brummelbeer</i> ~ <i>Brommelbeer</i>
~ <i>Brammelbeer</i>, German <i>Brombeere</i> 'blackberry', Low Saxon <i>Brummeldoorn</i>
~ <i>Brommeldoorn</i> ~ <i>Brammeldoorn</i> 'bramble'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";">In our region we
still use LS 'Brammer', which means something like a sharp edge, pike. This
way 'Brammelbeer'' could have be arisen - in 'sharp' difference to LS
'Stikkelbeer', G 'Stachelbeere', E 'gooseberry'(why 'goose-'???).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";" lang="NL">Allerbest; wat maokt de oll' leidige 'Rosie' ;-)?!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Jonny
Meibohm</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Courier New";"><br>
</span>----------<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
Thanks, folks.<br>
<br>
Jonny:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">stumble</span></strong><span style="font-family: Arial;"> < Germanic *<i>stam-</i>;
cf. "stammer", German <i>stumm</i> 'silent' < 'dumb'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Isn't
_stumble_ a verbum, meaning 'stolpern' in German, in LS 'snubbeln' or
'stubbeln'?? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
Problems talking, problems walking ... "Stumble" can also be used in the sense of progressing in a difficult and halting manner, also to <i>talk</i> in such a way (German <i>stocken</i>).<br>
<br>
Jonny, <i>zünden</i> 'to ligh (fire)' is related to Old English <i>tendan</i> <
Germanic *<i>tund-</i> 'to ignite' (> Gothic <i>tandjan</i>), and, </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">indeed </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">derived from it, <i>zündeln</i> 'to play with fire' is another example of frequentive
use, as is Low Saxon <i>kokeln</i> for the same, supposedly from <i>koken</i> 'to make (char)coal' (?).<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
<br>
P.S.: As for my malady, thanks, Jacqueline and Jonny. There's no itch, just pain
so far, and it's subsiding, and anti<u>viral</u> medication is being used. I'm quite
the sight right now, what with crud going up one side of my neck and face (and into
one ear!) and me not having shaved in five or six days ... People will be scared
to death when I go out for a doctor's appointment this afternoon.</span><span style=""></span></p>
</div>