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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 November 2008 - Volume 02<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).<br>
If viewing this in a web browser, please click on<br>
the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page <br>
and switch your browser's character encoding to Unicode.</span><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">===========================================</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br>
From: <span class="yshortcuts"><a href="mailto:ppvaneeden@ziggo.nl">ppvaneeden@ziggo.nl</a></span> <br>
Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(84, 141, 212);">Is er iemand die me met de volgende kunt helpen? Het
gaat namelijk over de woorden <i>haas</i> en <i>heer</i>.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(84, 141, 212);" lang="NL">Het woord <i>haas</i> is bekend in
Oudengels als <span class="foreign1">hara</span> "hare" afkomstig van
de Germaanse <span class="foreign1">*khasan-, </span>Oudhoogduits <span class="foreign1">haso</span>. Maar in het Middelnederlands word dit woord ook
soms gespeld als "<i>ase</i>''. Een <i>haas</i> was namelijk onder de oude
Germanen een heilig dier. Een haas was namelijk een symbool van vruchtbaarheid.
Is er misschien een verband te leggen tussen <i>haas</i> en de Godengroep <i>Asen</i>
(Oudnoors <i>Æsir</i>)?</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(84, 141, 212);" lang="NL">Het woord <i>heer</i> (Oudhoogduits <i>hêriro</i>).
Is het woord <i>heer </i>misschien verwant aan het woord <i>haas</i>?</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(84, 141, 212);" lang="NL">Hartelijke groetjes,</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(84, 141, 212);" lang="NL">Petrus van Eeden</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">rick denkers</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:info@d-denkers.speedlinq.nl">info@d-denkers.speedlinq.nl</a>></span>
<br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.30 (04E]<br>
<br style="">
</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Moin Jonny,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">In mijn etymologisch woordenboek staat
geen uitleg van dit woord. Echter, ik vond wel een andere- een zéér
interessante. Het begrip Duivenmelker is verwant aan het begrip Huisjesmelker
(Iemand die onevenredig (veel) winst maakt met het verhuren van woningen,
en vaak het onderhoud verwaarloost).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Als duiven uitvlogen dan wilde ze wel eens een 'vreemde
duif' mee terug nemen als de vlucht thuiskwam. Eerlijke duivenhouders gaven die
duif dan weer terug aan de eigenaar, maar er waren ook de nodige die 'stiekem'
die duif hielden. Die duivenhouders werden duivenmelkers genoemd. Later werden
alle duivenhouders zo genoemd. Het is niet
een typisch 'Nederlands' probleem: er zijn optekeningen van de 14de
eeuw en later over Italiaanse duivenhouders die hun duiven trainden om andere
duiven mee naar huis te lokken. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Beide begrippen zijn overigens te herleiden naar een
ander mooi Nederlands begrip: uitmelken. Onevenredig hoge winsen willen
behalen, vaak ten koste van een ander.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Tjeu,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Rick
Denkers</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
</span>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">wim</span></span></span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="ldacoc"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><<a href="mailto:wkv@home.nl">wkv@home.nl</a>></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> <br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.31 (04) [E]<br>
<br>
</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">Hi!</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">In the past i had pigeons, so i was a "pigeon milker"
myself..</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">This name might have something to do with how
pigeons feed their young ones, they make a fluid in their "krop" in dutch, a
milk like fluid, with which they feed their young, so pigeons give pigeon milk
to their young.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="DE">Wim Verdoold</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="DE">Zwolle Netherlands</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB"><a href="mailto:wkv@home.nl" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="DE">wkv@home.nl</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Mark Dreyer</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span> <br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.31 (04) [E]<br>
<br>
</span>Beste Jonny</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject:
LL-L "Etymology"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;"> Today I learned the Dutch word
'duivenmelker', E: 'pigeon fancier', G: 'Brieftauben-Züchter'.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
What's your opinion, dear neighbours in the West? Is it the correct explanation
for the origin of the word?</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Mark:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
It is a metaphor, of course, & a good one, hey! Funny & memorable. Mind
you, metaphores are like scabs - don't pick'em.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Yrs,</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Mark</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="hccdpe"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Jonny</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.31 (04) [E]<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">Thanks, Luc,</span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">yes, I
found an old discussion about D: 'duivenmelker' in the archieves.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">Jaap
Engelsman wrote:</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;"> According<br>
to the Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal,
this and similar words derive<br>
from "koeien melken" (milking cows) in the sense of "keeping
cows". The<br>
meaning "keeping [animals]" was transferred to other, non-milkable
animals,<br>
such as bees, rabbits and pigeons.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;">Compare
"huisjesmelker" (house-milker, someone who makes a profit from<br>
letting out houses).</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">In German
we also use the term 'to milk sb./sth.' to denote that one makes a good profit.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Our
Reinhard had another suggestion:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br>
<span style="color: teal;">(van Dale) ´dui·ven·melk (de ~)<br>
vetachtige
substantie die door de krop van duiven wordt<br>
afgescheiden
en waarmee de jongen gevoed worden</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;">In
other words, _duivenmelk_ is the fatty, milky "baby food" stored in a
dove's or pigeon's crop. I have heard that pigeon breeders remove it and
feed it to the young birds of their choice. In Dutch, pigeon breeders
thus became known as "pigeon milkers" (maybe because it sounds nice
and absurd, possibly was a nickname at first).</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Sounds also
plausible. I've heard about this practice, too.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Luc (about the
archieves): <span style="color: navy;">Which doesn't mean that everything was
said back then and there of course *s*.</span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">But this
time there seems to have been said everything which could be said ;-)!</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">mvg</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: courier new,monospace; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Jonny
Meibohm</span><span class="hccdpe"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="hccdpe"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mark Dreyer</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span><br>
Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
Beste Luc & All:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Subject:
LL-L "Etymology"<br>
<br>
Luc reports: Just came across the interesting Scots verb "to kittle"
for "to tickle" (E). Scots has this "k-t-l"-structure in
common with all the other North-Sea Germanic languages:<br>
<br>
kitzeln (G), kittelen/kietelen (D), köteln (B), kitla
(Icelandic)...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Some Flemish dialects have "tingelen", which
means" to feel a burning sensation in your skin, after touching a nettle
(the plant itself is often called "nen tingel"). As far as I know,
Brabantish doesn't have the noun, we do use "singelen" for the verb
though (related to English "to singe").</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark: We
should add this to a previous string; more hard data. Luc, look up 'kittle-hus'
in the Scots, but watch out - it gets meaty!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">By the way,
I suppose you know the English use 'tingle' also, with the same meaning? I
suppose it is cognate with the Latin 'tangere' = to touch. English has borrowed
that for extended terminology (like 'tangible', tangential, tangent), but no
relation to tingle.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">---------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.31 (05) [E]</span><br>
<br>
Dear Lowlanders,<br>
<br>
Regarding English <i>tickle</i> versus <i>*kittel ~ kittle ~ kitzel</i> in
related varieties, I thought I was on to a nifty hypothesis, namely that it was
<u>English</u> that had retained the older form while related varieties,
including Scots (and Northumbrian?), have adopted and variously developed the
metathesized form.<br>
<br>
I got onto that path because we are obviously dealing with our old friend, the
frequentive suffix <i>-l</i> (that expresses frequent repetitions of </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> "small" </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">actions).
We have English <i>tick</i>, Low Saxon (an-)<i>tikken</i> (<i>(an)ticken</i>),
etc., standing for 'to touch lightly' (which goes nicely with Latin <i>tangere</i>
> <i>tingle</i> mentioned by Marck above). So, *<i>tik-l-</i> *"to
repetitively touch lightly" for 'to tickle' made a lot of sense to me. Alas,
dictionaries show the following for 'to tickle':<br>
<br>
Old Saxon: <i>kitilōn</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Old
English: <i>citelian</i><br>
Germanic: *<i>kitōn</i>, *<i>kitilōn</i><br>
Indo-European: *<i>geid-</i> *"to prick"?<br>
<br>
Too bad!<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>