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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 November 2008 - Volume 02<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics"</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Beste Mike,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">The case at hand (ABN vs. Afrikaans) seems to me to be
a borderline case. The layman that I am I can only state that with my knowlwdge
of ABN I can fluently read Afrikaans without the slightest hesitations.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Oh yes, I'm
sure you can. Whether you would be able to do that in Western Flemish,
Limburgish (or even Brabantish) remains to be seen I think. No matter what
orthography you choose, you'd be having a much harder time understanding the
essentials. Mind you, I'm not underestimating your language skills Mike, quite
the contrary, but mutual intelligibility between Standard Dutch and any of the
Southern varieties is much weaker than with any variety of Afrikaans. Both in
speech and in writing. I'm quite sure that native "Hollanders" also
experience much more trouble understanding real Southern dialect, than they do
with Afrikaans by the way.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Are the
Southern dialects not Dutch then? Of course they are.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">In a
broader sense, I'd say that Frankish dialects are spoken in both Germany,
the Netherlands
and Belgium.
No priority here, but as far as I know there's more people speaking Frankish in
Germany
than in either the Netherlands
or Belgium.
Not that this number matters so much to me, personally I'm more interested in
the historic evolution of a language.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You also
wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">I
liked the fireworks of propositions and counter-propositions, Luc and Ron, and I
read with pleasure. Only one sentence of yours made my eyebrows rise, Luc, when
you suggested that codifying and officializing a language is equivalent to
raping it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">I
can see your point, Luc, one loses a bit of color, variation and variability.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Precisely,
that's the price you have to pay in order to get a "working language".</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">But
would you propose that the hundreds of standardized languages that enjoy
official status, are the result of rape?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Not
litterally of course, a language can not be raped. In Dutch, in which I wrote
the original message, the word "verkrachten" also means "geweld
aandoen", in a figurative way. That's the meaning I wanted to come across.
The notion that in the case of a minority language, external forces are using
power and knowledge in a deliberate way to (re)shape this language from
"without", instead of "within", is what brings me to use
this term. Yes, this process doesn't happen overnight, it can be very subtle.
Moreover, the actors are often not homebred.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Kind
greetings,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc
Hellinckx</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics"</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Beste Ron,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">Luc, are you suggesting that theses and dissertations should
be written only in English and perhaps a handful of other languages with
international currency? Would that not be elitist (considering that active
command of a foreign language does not necessarily determine one's
degree-worthiness)? What would that say about languages that are not part of
this, and what would it do to their status and image?</span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;"></span>As always, truth is in the middle
Ron *s*. Some languages/dialects are good enough to write a dissertation in,
some aren't. In the end, it's up to the universities themselves to draw the
line. "Sprachaktivisten" can/should have their say of course, but the
bottom line is that the universities should know how strong market demands are.
Same kind of discussion is going on here these days regarding the availability
of non-Dutch courses at universities. Mandatory or not?<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">Luc,
I think there is something to be said for and against both systems: language
policies and no language policies. If you have no language policies (as in the </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">US</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">) you have a clear
case of survival of the fittest. If you do have language policies one would
hope that they are fair and do not afford status and protection to favored
languages only, a tactic usually used to bring about linguistic, cultural and
ethnic homogeneity.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
Is the latter feasible? Singapore? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Is there
any country in this world with language policies being enforced and that yet
manages to realize linguistic, cultural and ethnic homogeneity? Would love to
know. Thinking of moving already *s*.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Kind
greetings,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc
Hellinckx</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">PS:
Sint-Genesius-Rode (which Jonny mentioned in his mail today) is just around the
block (6 km from here).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Language politics<br>
<br>
Hi and thanks, Luc!<br>
<br>
As far as I know, in Spain
some universities in Galicia
and Catalonia
have instated Galician and Catalan as primary languages with Castilian
(Spanish) as a secondary language. There is a lot of language reassertion in
those areas, probably in great part due to what amounted to regional and
minority language prohibition under the Franco regime. I am not sure how this
is handled in detail, but I imagine that at least some people write their
dissertations in Galician and Catalan and perhaps add a Castilian summary.<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Is there any country in this
world with language policies being enforced and that yet manages to realize
linguistic, cultural and ethnic homogeneity? Would love to know. Thinking of
moving already *s*.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
I'm not quite understanding your question. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
If you are asking if there are countries in which language policies (real or <i>de
facto</i>) have led to monolingualism, well most countries have been working on
it. Many have prohibited or discouraged use of languages other than the
dominant one (e.g. France,
and before the pesky Language Charter came along other European countries as
well. They have been working on it mostly by not permitting languages other
than the dominant ones in education and the main media. Japan
is another example, where Ainu is now virtually extinct, Ryukyuan languages are
becoming moribund, and, due to justifiable fear of discrimination, young
Koreans trying to blend in and abandon their ancestral language. Mostly due to
policies and sentiments in the 20th century, Greece
is pretty close to being ethnically and linguistically homogeneous now, as
ethnic minorities abandoned their languages and individuals declared themselves
ethnically Greek. Although Greece
now (reluctantly) acknowledges the European Language Charter, it may be too
late to salvage some of the minority languages there. The same may be true of France
if France
ever does sign and implement the Charter. It might be too little too late.
Centuries of talking about <i>patois</i> and such and socially stigmatizing use
of languages other than French have taken their toll.<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Would love to know. Thinking of
moving already *s*.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
But please don't write "Wish you were here" on your postcards to me. I'm all
for national and international use of <i>linguae francae</i> as long as
pluralism, including linguistic pluralism, is allowed to continue and thrive.
Linguistic, cultural and ethnic homogeneity? How boring! But perhaps it seems
like Eden from
a Belgian point of view? (Still the old "one country - one ethnicity - one
language" ideal swirling about?) <br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S.: "<u>Good</u>
enough"?! </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Tsk-tsk … *s*<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:ppvaneeden@ziggo.nl">ppvaneeden@ziggo.nl</a><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2008.11.11 (03) [A]<br>
<br>
Beste Ron,<br>
<br>
In beginsel is ek nie gekant teen Afrikaans as kultuurtaal nie. Maar met
die koms van Afrikaans as kultuurtaal is Nederlands verdryf. Hierteen is ek
gekant. Die Suid-Afrikaanse grondwet het tussen 1910 en 1983 bepaal dat
Afrikaans en Nederlands sinonieme sou wees. By die een taal was ook die ander
bedoel. Maar in die praktyk het die Afrikaners ons prestige variëteit
afgeskryf. Dit was 'n fout. Kleine Afrikaans kan sy sprekers dus nie kultureel
volledig voed nie. Die Afrikaners wend hulle nou noodgedwonge tot
Engels vir hierdie voeding. Hierdie afskrywing van Nederlands het vir
ons Afrikaners 'n hoop ellende gebring.<br>
<br>
As mense Limburgs, Vlaams, Brabant of Laagsaksies as kultuurtaal
wil gaan gebruik het ek daar geen beswaar teen nie. Maar as hulle in die
proses Nederlands wil vervang en Nederlands wil afskryf (soos wat die Afrikaners
gedoen het) sal dit hulle duur te staan kom.<br>
<br>
Ron, dit is so dat baie Nederlanders en Vlaminge Afrikaans as dialek
van Nederlands sal beskou terwyl die Afrikaners van vandag nie hierdie siening
huldig nie. Tog het die Afrikaners hierdie siening gehuldig tussen die 17de en
vroeg 20ste eeu. Dit laat 'n mens sien hoe sterk die rol van
persepsie is op die taalpolitieke terrein.<br>
<br>
Jy skryf verder dat tale meer beskerming het as dialekte. Ek is dit met jou
eens, maar alle dialekte kan nie tale word nie. In Nederland en Vlaandere word
daar nie 10 dialekte gepraat nie, nie 50 nie, maar seker 'n paar honderd. Hulle
kan tog nie almal tale word nie? Dit is slimmer dat die dialeksprekers een
bovengewestelike kultuurtaal aanwys as onderlinge kommunikasie-instrument. Dit
het al gebeur. Sy naam is Nederlands. Maar ook ek wil die dialekte nie sien
verdwyn nie. Dis pragtige goed. Ek kan my byvoorbeeld verluister aan Kaapse
Afrikaans. Dis pragtig, soos ook elke ander Nederlandse dialek.<br>
<br>
Groetjes,<br>
<br>
Petrus van Eeden<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="NL">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">><br>
Subject: Language politics<br>
<br>
Dankie, Petrus.<br>
<br>
Ek mag met jy saamstem indien jy voorstel dat weens die ou histories bande
tussen die twee tale (die Europiese) Nederlands 'n pligvak in
afrikaanssprekende skole moet wees. Maar die horlosie terugdraai en (die
Europiese) Nederlands weer die "prestige-variëteit" bo Afrikaans noem, dus
Afrikaans soos 'n "low-prestige dialect" terugsit nadat dit nou al ten mindste <i>de
facto</i> amper een eeu soos 'n onafhanklike taal mit sy eie standaard-dialek
word beskou en gebruik?!<br>
<br>
Turks, Gagausies en Azeri (Azerbaidzjaans) is ook baie naby verwante tale en is
grotendeels wedersyds verstaanbaar. Die tradisionele Turkse credo is dat Gagausies
en Azeri (en ook alle ander turktale) dialekte van Turks en sy
prestige-variëteit Standaard-Turks van Turkye is. Hierdie gesindheid word deur
die meeste sprekers van ander turktale soos verwaand verwerp. Na die val van
die Ystergordyn het hulle die spelkuns van sommige turktale by die
Turkye-Turkse spelkuns aangepas. Maar weens etnologie, kultuur en geskiedenis
bly hulle aparte tale. Daar is ou bande tussen die Turkvolke, maar 'n verenigde
"Groot-Turkse" taal, kultuur en ryk sal waarskynlik 'n utopie bly. ("Eenkeer 'n
taal, ewig 'n taal"?)<br>
<br>
Pennsylvania-Duits het as 'n Frankiese dialek van Duits begin, maar
godsdienstig en kultureel verskille, isolasie van Duitsland en Engels invloede
veroorsaak 'n unieke ontwikkeling. Ja, Duits-sprekers kan veel daarvan verstaan,
maar nie baie Pennsylfanish-sprekers kan Standaard-Duits perfekt verstaan. Die
meeste van hulle beskou hulle nie as ware Duitsers nie; hulle is Amerikaners
wat "Deitsch" praat. Die meeste van hul voorouers het na Amerika
emigreer omdat hulle vervolg was en godsdiestige vryheid het gesoek. Om hierdie
rede word hul "Deitsch" in die algemeen as 'n aparte taal beskou.<br>
<br>
Die Skandanawies tale is ook grotendeels wedersyds verstaanbaar. Maar weens
etnologies, histories en polities redes word hulle as aparte tale beskou.<br>
<br>
My doel: Moenie die sprekers se gesindhede, bewustheid en vereenselwig ignoreer
nie!<br>
<br>
Groete,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>