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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 November 2008 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics"</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Beste Ron,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">Is there any country in this world with language
policies being enforced and that yet manages to realize linguistic, cultural
and ethnic homogeneity? Would love to know. Thinking of moving already *s*.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><br>
I'm not quite understanding your question.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"><br>
If you are asking if there are countries in which language policies (real
or <i>de facto</i>) have led to monolingualism, well most countries have
been working on it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">That's not
what I was wondering about. I wanted to know if there are any countries that
are linguistically very diverse and that yet seem to manage these different
groups in a homogeneous way (read: no discrimination) through an active
language policy that is truly being enforced. Whether that is practically
feasible is what I would like to know. These fair governments would have to
treat each single language group, whether it be minority or majority, the same
way (both de jure and de facto), as part of a more general attitude where
cultural and ethnic differences as well would be levelled out de jure.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Kind
greetings,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc
Hellinckx</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mike
Wintzer</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:k9mw@yahoo.com">k9mw@yahoo.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.11.13 (02)
[A/E]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Groetjes
allemaal,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I find this
discussion which crystallizes around "Dutch vs. Afrikaans" getting
ever more intresting as more and more subtleties come to light. No longer
living in the concerned areas (only in ZHolland have I spent long periods) I
permit myself only some questions and observations: I remember that on Dutch TV
some Flemish pieces were presented with subtitles, very necessary, for me
anyway. The same was done with Afrikaans which I found helpful but not
essential.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Luc, when
you say Frankish, do you include the Lower Frankish languages such as Dutch?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">(Whatever
your answer, you might want to kill me for having asked so naively.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Singapur,
o, o: I had the priviledge of observing this in close-up. Since decades the
Chinese-dominated government is forcing (sic!) Chinese (not Indians, not Malay
speakers, not Europeans) to switch to Mandarin which in my view amounts to
genocide, as the immigrants from the North belong to very divers ethnic,
linguistic, cultural groups ("Chinese" is just a generic term such as
"European". It's the unifying force of the Chinese writing system
which creates misunderstendings). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Don't get
me wrong: The Singapur government is not alone. To my mind, the same sort of
genocide is happening or has happened almost everywhere, last not least in France and Germany.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Perhaps we
have overlooked still one aspect in this controversy "überdachen or
not" (what would be a good English term for <em><span style="font-family: Arial;">überdachen</span></em>?). Isn't there a
difference between ABN taking the Flemish dialects, and Afrikaans, for
that matter, under its wings and German forcing LS (a much more distant
language) under its roof? To me the difference is essential as a language
existing under the almighty force of a central government has much smaller
chances of survival than if it it exists under a different government. So if I
may assume a Salomonic rôle. Ron's home is Lower Saxony
which had to put up with more or less centralistic Frankish-speaking
governments for most of the time during the last 12 centuries (since Verden AD
782). Luc's home is (I may be mistaken?) Vaanderen, which largely escaped such
fate to this day. So if Ron shuns <em><span style="font-family: Arial;">Überdachung</span></em>
and Luc advocates it I can feel for both of you.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Let me
therefore conclude by quoting our guru (that's what he is after all, isn't he):</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">My doel: Moenie die sprekers se gesindhede, bewustheid en
vereenselwig ignoreer nie!</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">That is LL
spirit!</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I'm all for
national and international use of </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">linguae francae</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> as long as pluralism,
including linguistic pluralism, is allowed to continue and thrive. </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">These are
also Ron's words. Don't we all agree, at least in principle?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Tot lezens!
Mike Wintzer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe">
</span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.11.13 (02)
[A/E]</span><br>
<br></span></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: Language politics</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="NL">
... Ja, Duits-sprekers kan veel (Pennsylvania-Duits) verstaan, maar nie baie
Pennsylfanish-sprekers kan Standaard-Duits perfekt verstaan....</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Groete,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Reinhard/Ron </span></span></div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> That's an interesting
turnaround on the usual relationship between a "dialect" and the
Standard form isn't it? For example, speakers of Geordie, Glaswegian or other
strong regional dialects have no problem with Standard English, but someone who
only speaks the latter often struggles with the local varieties.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Regarding the mutual
intellibility of Afrikaans and Dutch, I find it interesting that Dutch
speakers/readers appear to have little problem with Afrikaans; my experience in
South Africa was that the reverse generally didn't hold true - but I sometimes
wondered if that was a deliberate refusal to understand on
"nationalistic" grounds. I recall having a technical paper in
Dutch which I found fairly easy to work through even with my less than perfect
Afrikaans (I never studied Dutch); yet South Africans, both English and
Afrikaans speaking, seemed to find it very difficult. After English and German,
I still find Dutch and Afrikaans the easiest posts to read on this list. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">It may be a mind-set thing:
when I read or hear another language, especially a Germanic one, I look for
similarities ("ah, yes, that's obviously related
to English"...). People with a regional language variety,
especially one under threat, tend to want to stress the differences - they
don't want to think their speech is like somebody else's, and understanding the
other one is almost an admission of defeat. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Montgomery
Michael</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:ullans@yahoo.com">ullans@yahoo.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.11.13 (01)
[D/E]</span><br>
<br>
Dear Ron<br>
<br>
With the volume of mail that arrives on Lowlands-L and with my many other
commitments, I cannot keep up with postings so regularly as I once did.
But I read the one below and was once again reminded how much I have
learned from this list that brings news and ideas from such a fascinating part
of our world and that I would have been deprived of otherwise. So let me
take this moment and thank you again for your dedication to this list day in
and day out. I cannot think of another one that has flowered so richly
and under the direction of a single individual. You will no doubt defer
the gratitude to many others, but save a bit for yourself. Long may it
and you flourish.<br>
<br>
With kind regards<br>
<br>
Michael Montgomery<br>
Univ of South Carolina<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">E Zinsser</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.11.13 (01)
[D/E]</span><br>
<br>
Haai almal, <br>
<br>
Dankie, Ron, jy verwoord presies wat die realiteit is. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Afrikaans
<strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">is </span></strong>'n offisiële taal in
Suid- Afrika en belangegroepe moet daaraan werk dat die taal nie verwaarloos
word nie, wat wel op baie vlakke gedoen word. <br>
<br>
Die probleem ontstaan wanneer 'n regering nie die wil of
vermoë het om hul nasionale tale as skat te bewaar nie, soos wat op
vele ander vlakke in Suid Afrika gebeur ten opsigte van
standbeelde, gedenkwaardighede en selfs 'n straatnaam genoem na Paul
Kruger. <br>
<br>
Verwaarlosing van taal is simptomies van die verwaarlosing van Suid
Afrikaners se sosiale welstand op alle ander terreine; armoede en
kriminaliteit word eenvoudig nie aangespreek nie. <br>
<br>
Nog 'n realiteit is dat Afrikaans se situasie heeltemal nie so beroerd
is soos dit met ander kleiner offisiële Suid Afrikaanse
tale die geval is nie. <br>
<br>
Jy verwys na 'n paar tipies Afrikaanse woorde, Ron. Ek self het nog geen
Afrikaanssprekers gehoor die Engelse woord 'plonk' gebruik
nie (goedkoop/swak wyn). Ons noem dit gewoonweg maar 'dooswyn' wat
ook wyn in papersakke/kartonne kan wees. <br>
<br>
Ek dink jy het *wegnemetjies (take-away food) verkeerd gelees. Die vorm is
<br>
"wegneem etes" of "wegneem kos". <br>
<br>
Groete,<br>
Elsie Zinsser<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">E Zinsser</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language politics" 2008.11.13 (02)
[A/E]</span><br>
<br>
Haai julle, <br>
<br>
Petrus, jou inligting is erg foutief. Die koloniale grondwet van 1910
het Afrikaans nog glad nie as offisiële taal beskou nie. Dit het eers in
1925 gebeur. <br>
<br>
Dalk kry jy die inligting van Engelse geskrifte; hulle het altyd graag (en
party is so agter die tyd, hulle doen dit vandag nog), na Afrikaans en
Afrikaners as 'Dutch' en 'Dutchmen' verwys.
<br>
<br>
In 1983 het die grondwet ook Afrikaans en Engels gelykmatig as offisiële tale
beskou. <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Elsie Zinsser<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Language politics<br>
<br>
Thanks, everybody, for those wonderful responses. A special thank you goes to
Petrus for having kicked off a topic that requires us to examine various aspects
and facets of what is really a complex problem, and Michael for the rare
appearance that made the Kahuna smile.<br>
<br>
"Guru", Mike?! Now you're getting carried away, mate. And – hey – I'm from the
Old Saxon region but not from Lower Saxony (though I did live in Lower Saxony for a couple of years once). I have you know
that I'm from the <b>Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg</b>, young man. <br>
<br>
Paul, Pennsylvanian German (<i>Deitsch</i>) exists "under" English, has only
occasional brushes with Standard German, which may explain why it is difficult
for its speakers to understand Standard German. Apparently, the same goes or
used to go for certain Low Saxon dialects of the US Midwest.<br>
<br>
Consider the beginning of Solomon DeLong's version of <i>The Night before
Christmas:<br></i></span></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><i>
Die Nacht 'fer Krishdawg:</i></span></div>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Es war die nacht 'fer
Krishdawg, wie darrichs gons hous<br>
Nix hot sich ferrak'd, net a mohl en mous;<br>
Die shtrimp war'n om shonshta in roi'a ufkenkt,<br>
In der hoffnung der Belsnickle en yaders ba-shenkt.<br>
Die kinner war'n all om shlofa im bett<br>
Mit shpielsach un kandy
war'n foll ihr kep;<br>
Ich un die Mam, schlaferich, die arwet all ga'du,<br>
Suchten unser bett fer notwendichie ruh. . . .</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>