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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 November 2008 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.11.15 (05)
[E]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From:
Ed Alexander <<a href="mailto:edsells@cogeco.ca" target="_blank">edsells@cogeco.ca</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.11.15 (03) [E]Even though the
"two" languages (Serbian and Croatian) are (I am told) about as far
apart as the two dialects (based on religion) spoken in Ulster, they
are written in two different alphabets!<br>
<br>
Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Canada </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Before
Yugoslavia
broke up, they were often officially colectively called
"Serbo-Croat". In the Sixties, I knew a couple of kids of Yugoslav
parents who did "O" Level GCSE Serbo-Croat (it was an easy way to get
an extra "O" Level if you spoke it anyway). I think they wrote with
the Latin alphabet, so it was probably more Croatian than Serbian. </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">In
Wollongong, Australia, there are large
populations of both communities. They arrived as immigrants from Yugoslavia, but very much split themselves into
Serb or Croat communities, and there remains little love lost between them,
even amongst the younger ones, some of whom probably couldn't find Serbia on a
map. </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Paul
Finlow-Bates</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
From: Wesley Parish <<a href="mailto:wes.parish@paradise.net.nz">wes.parish@paradise.net.nz</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.11.15 (03) [E]<br>
<br>
On Monday 17 November 2008 08:27, Lowlands-L List wrote:<br>
<snip><br>
><br>
> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.11.15 (02) [E]<br>
><br>
> Hi Elsie,<br>
><br>
> "Deliberate refusal" was perhaps a poor choice of words!
"Subconcious<br>
> resistance" might be a better explanation, altough I accept that your<br>
> purely linguistic reason probably has more significance.<br>
><br>
> However I have encountered similar "understanding refusals"; I
once<br>
> suggested to some Cook Islanders that they might find Tahitian fairly easy<br>
> to follow and the idea was dismissed with comments suggesting that they<br>
> disliked the very idea. Yet Cook's Tahitian cabin boy could
apparently<br>
> converse with New Zealand Maori, and Rarotongans readily admit similarity<br>
> with that. I only know a little of any of them, but I don't see too
much<br>
> difference.<br>
<br>
I know some Te Reo Maori (New Zealand)
and can understand some Cook Islands<br>
Maori. I find some Hawai'ian understandable, as long as I remember that
some<br>
sounds in Te Reo are represented differently in Hawai'ian. I haven't
tried<br>
learning Tahitian, but I can pick up certain similarities and understand a<br>
limited amount.<br>
<br>
It is definitely a political, rather than a linguistic, matter - when they are<br>
concentrating on being Polynesians, it's a different matter.<br>
><br>
> Whether or not Afrikaans/Dutch is a good example, I still believe that
such<br>
> nationalistic emphasis of difference over similarity is a real phenomenon.<br>
<br>
FWIW, a former landlord of mine, from the Netherlands, told me he found he<br>
could understand Afrikaans. He also complained about Frisians' habits of<br>
talking in Frisian ;) and locking him out, but he said that on a trip he made<br>
once to Köln he had found himself able to make himself understood, and could<br>
understand Kölners. Looking back, I think he was from the North, and had<br>
heard, if not spoken, one of the Netherlands Saxon dialects, at an early age.<br>
<br>
Of course, it's one of the habits of former colonial communities to emphasize<br>
differences as well as similarities - New Zealand
being a good example,<br>
Australia
being another.<br>
<br>
Just my 0.02c worth - don't spend it all at once! We have a recession
going<br>
on! ;)<br>
<br>
Wesley Parish<br>
><br>
> Paul<br>
><br>
--<br>
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish<br>
-----<br>
Gaul is quartered into three halves.
Things which are<br>
impossible are equal to each other. Guerrilla<br>
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.<br>
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom<br>
of the foolish.<br>
-----<br>
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?<br>
You ask, what is the most important thing?<br>
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.<br>
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: Wesley Parish <<a href="mailto:wes.parish@paradise.net.nz">wes.parish@paradise.net.nz</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.11.15 (05) [E]<br>
<br>
On Monday 17 November 2008 09:01, Lowlands-L List wrote:<br>
> From: Ed Alexander <<a href="mailto:edsells@cogeco.ca">edsells@cogeco.ca</a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.11.15 (03) [E]<br>
><br>
<snip><br>
> I have told this story here before. My wife teaches in a Catholic
high<br>
> school. As the only Protestant there, they once put her in charge of<br>
> getting various students to say the Hail Mary over the P.A. at the<br>
> beginning of the school day. She ramped this up by having students
from<br>
> different language groups do it in their native language. One day, she
had<br>
> a Serbian student do it. Later in the day, she encountered a small
group<br>
> of Croation students who asked her who was that speaking Croatian with
that<br>
> funny accent? When she told them that it was a Serb, they were
absolutely<br>
> incredulous, because, "as everyone knows, there are no Serbian
Catholics."<br>
> Even though the "two" languages are (I am told) about as far
apart as the<br>
> two dialects (based on religion) spoken in Ulster, they are written in two<br>
> different alphabets!<br>
<br>
I can verify that. I have in my hot little hands, a couple of books:<br>
"Teach Yourself Serbo-Croat" by Vera Javarek and Miroslava Sudjić,<br>
and:<br>
"Serbo-Croatian: Practical Grammar and Reader" by Monica Partridge.
Both are<br>
from the Yugoslav era, before the nation split into conflicting tribes.<br>
<br>
TY Serbo-Croat, Introduction, xi-xii:<br>
"Serbo-Croat has three dialects, named after the word for 'what' in each
of<br>
them. Two of them, the kaj and ča dialects, are spoken over relatively
small<br>
areas; the kaj-dialect (which somewhat resembles Slovene) in an area to the<br>
west of Zagreb, and the ča-dialect in parts of
southern Dalmatia and the<br>
Islands. Elsewhere the što-dialect is
spoken, and is nearly always used in<br>
literature. [...]<br>
"The Cyrillic alphabet was adopted by Yugoslavs belonging to the Orthodox<br>
church; and the Latin alphabet - suplemented by 'diacritic signs' placed over<br>
certain letters - by the Roman Catholics. Hence the Serbs of Belgrade use<br>
the e-dialect and the Cyrillic alphabet, and the Croats of Zagreb use the<br>
ije-dialect and the Latin alphabet, [...]"<br>
<br>
Partridge's "Serbo-Croatian" says the same thing, in different words.<br>
<br>
Wesley Parish<br>
><br>
> Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Canada<br>
><br>
<snip><br>
<br>
--<br>
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish<br>
-----<br>
Gaul is quartered into three halves.
Things which are<br>
impossible are equal to each other. Guerrilla<br>
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.<br>
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom<br>
of the foolish.<br>
-----<br>
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?<br>
You ask, what is the most important thing?<br>
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.<br>
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Brooks, Mark</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.11.15 (06)
[E]</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Elsie wrote: People have
language mental blocks. They think you are "English" and hence don't
register your Afrikaans. They see you are 'White' and don't register your
Zulu greeting.<span style="color: navy;"> </span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Hi Elsie:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I would like to confirm
what you say, not with respect to Afrikaans or other South African languages,
but with respect to Spanish and English. Whenever I've traveled in Mexico, most people see me as "American" (USA) and seem
not to even hear that I have asked them a question in Spanish. They
seemingly automatically answer me in English. Now, if they don't know any
English, they don't seem to have that "problem." </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Likewise, when I traveled
in the Netherlands
many, many years ago (1970), I could merely walk into a store and they would
speak to me in English. Some credit that to "Americans" acting like we
own the world, but really, how could I have given myself away that
easily? Clothes? I don't think so, everyone back then went around
with dirty hair and dirty jeans ;-). Even when I tried to talk my halting
Dutch, they stuck with English. My halting Dutch may have given them even
more reason to stick with English, huh?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">BTW, this weekend I checked
the Internet at home to find sources of the news in Afrikaans that I could
practice reading. I read Dutch pretty well and I find the posts here on
the list in Afrikaans fairly easy to read as well. I found several online
newspapers, but they all seem to have the same owner. Every one had the
same URL <a href="http://www.news24.com/" target="_blank">www.news24.com</a>
with the individual paper after the slash. Does just one media company
own all of the Afrikaans language newspapers?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark Brooks</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Language varieties<br>
<br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
All of what's written above pretty much tallies with my own experiences, which
has led me to the conclusion that attitude is extremely important but is
usually underestimated and is therefore rarely mentioned in connection with
cross-language communication and foreign language learning.<br>
<br>
In "attitude" I include all sorts of things, such as views (incl. prejudices)
and expectations.<br>
<br>
The mentioned examples about inter-Polynesian communication are very much <i>à
propos</i>. Speakers usually point out differences and "weirdnesses" that make
it impossible to understand each other, and no doubt they have the immense
geographical distances in mind as well, asside from cultural differences. But
-- lo and behold! -- people will make real efforts and will marvel at the
remaining close linguistic connections at inter-Polynesian meetings that
celebrate their common heritage.<br>
<br>
Probably along the same lines as the Balkan example is my encounter in Upper Austria where in my northern-colored Standard
German I asked a lady for directions and she answered in Bavarian saying that
she didn't know German.<br>
<br>
Many Westerners report strange reactions in Eastern Asia, especially in Japan
where some people seem to not understand you when you speak their language.
Most of the time this is because they think they should be talking English with
you but can't manage to do so. The reason is that there are many ways of
speaking to people in Japanese, depending on their social states in relation to
your own. Westerners do not fit in, or rather, their relative social states (positions)
cannot be determined if they are strangers. Use of English or another foreign
language is a way out of the tricky situation. If a Japanese has little or no
verbal command of English (and this is most of them) he or she will have "panicky"
reactions, because anything is better than insulting you when addressing you in
Japanese. This is not so much true in Chinese environments. In Taiwan and in Southeast
Asia, no matter how good your Mandarin may be, well-educated
people will usually answer in English. Why? Oftentimes because of their
prejudices that lead them to assume that a Westerner can't possibly master
Chinese while their own mastery of English is not in question. However, Chinese
people <i>without</i> command of English will understand you just fine and will
often heave a sigh of relief when the approaching foreigner turns out to speak
their language. In Mainland China
between Mao's death and the beginning of the economic boom, pretty much
everyone <u>expected</u> me to know Chinese when they saw me traipse around by
myself, certainly outside metropolitan centers. This was their assumption
because I was running around without "watchdogs" (i.e. guides/interpreters),
especially if I wore a Mao uniform (which many foreign students still did at
the time). (Some people took me for a member of China's small Russian minority,
especially when I traveled in the far-western parts of the country.)<br>
<br>
As mentioned, attitude is also extremely important in language learning. The
expectation that one <u>can</u> learn a foreign language, no matter which one, makes
all the difference. This is what so many people lack, especially when it comes
to "exotic" languages (which in many people's minds includes any language they
don't half understand to begin with and any language that uses a different
script). Some adults have the unrealistic expectation that they will learn a
foreign language "perfectly" and "accent-free". When they realize that this is
not going to happen they tend to give up altogether.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>