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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 20 November 2008 - Volume 03<span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Jonny</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (01) [E]</span></span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Beste
Heather and Reinhard,</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">you wrote:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">(Heather)</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;">Can
I suggest that this is one of the BIGGEST reasons why English speakers just
give up when abroad trying to speak the language of the country. I have heard
it countless times from people who were all geared up to do their shopping or
ask directions or order a meal in the language only to be met with English
replies.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;">It
is utterly disheartening!</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;">....</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">(Ron)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;">The
push to know English is enormous all around the world now. Many people seem to
have a hard time admitting that their English as a second language isn't quite
sufficient in a given situation, especially in an English-speaking environment
or talking with a person who has English as a first language. Admitting that it's
insufficient is like admitting failure, which most people find too
embarrassing.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Let
me speak about my feeling as a German born into a time after WWII when
everything around being 'German' still was connected with damned
Nazi-stuff or, as a result of a long time of international isolation, with
provincialism, stupidity and uglyness (Reinhard, Mike, you perhaps will
agree!). One possibility to climb out of this situation (besides any
useful businesses *s*): you had to show that you were able to talk in your
hosts'/guests' language, preferably better than your respondent
commanded German.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">This wasn't
a factum, but just a feeling!</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Another
reason to talk English at all possible opportunities might have been
caused by the fact that specially in Northern Germany we lived in the
Anglo-American zone of occupation, with (in the late fifties and beginning
sixties) most time very friendly contact to the Allies. But they were soldiers,
and they didn't have a chance to learn German resp. didn't want to do within
their short time of service in Germany.
My parents had - for whatever reasons - a lot of contact to
British soldiers, but weren't able to talk English. So they first tried to make
some conversation in a mixture of French, German and some snippets of English,
till I could help them as a kind of interpreter.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">This made
me an important person, not only in my family ;-)!</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">At the same
time American and British music swashed all over the European continent. You
were considered to be a backwoodsman if you would hear music with German
texts, and this lasted for roughly half a century (today very young
people prefer German-texted music - probably a result of a solid
self-confidence of those German youngsters, who have already been educated by
an 'innocent' generation as well as of the growing influence of
different ethnics in G.).</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">But in
general: isn't it a question of 'social adaptation' to try to copy your
respondent's customs? And isn't a language a kind of custom in a farer sense?
In German we have got the idiom 'er spricht dieselbe Sprache wie wir'
('he's speaking the same language as we do'), meaning 'he's nearly one of us,
of our <em>tribe</em>'. An archaic,
deep-rooted way of human behaviour to show that someone is welcomed, to
open the doors for a stranger.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">But of
course I have to agree, that this sometimes might be disheartening, as Heather
wrote, for native speakers of English who want to learn a foreign language 'in
situ'. To be too polite even can be impolite! C'est la vie...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">(Heather)</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;">We
then had the weirdest of conversations where I spoke in German to her, she
spoke in English to me, but in German over the phone to her daughter who was
giving her directions.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: teal;">Now why was
that? You would have thought someone who was lost and with little English would
thank the Gods that they had happened to find themselves outside the house of
someone who happens to speak German but no...... she insisted on speaking
English.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">The lady
may have been completely confused by the whole situation!?</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Let me just
mention one additional aspect. Again and again I have to experience that my
quality of talking heavily depends on the quality of the language skill of
my correspondent - no matter if it is German, Low Saxon or English (the three
of them I'm more or less able to <em>speak</em>). Some
strong feed-back is affecting me - perhaps as a result of my unconscious
efforts to reach an equal level. But there is a certain limit up- as well
as downwards across which I don't want and don't be able to follow without
feeling myself unwell. At such a point I always should try to escape from the
whole conversation or, if possible, shift to another language.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Of course -
this can be impolite, once again...</span></p>
<p style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-family: courier new,monospace;">Allerbest!</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Jonny
Meibohm</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Ronald
Veenker</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:veenker@atmc.net">veenker@atmc.net</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (01) [E]</span><br>
<br>
Dear Heather, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Your email
reminds me of a strange event Orley in Paris.
I had a colleague at my university who was a specialist in Canadian
French literature. Karin is a native speaker of French, born in the Alsace. Her mother
always spoke French to the children and her father German. Karin has a
PhD from a university in the US
and returns home to the family about two or three times a year. When she
arrived at the baggage area at Orley and spoke to a uniformed attendant in
French he answered her in English, suggesting to her that he didn't think she
knew his language. She felt terribly put down.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Ron Veenker<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">burgdal32admin</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:burgdal32@telenet.be">burgdal32@telenet.be</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (02) [E]</span><br>
<br>
Hi, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">De paar keer dat ik in Amsterdam op bezoek was, is mij
dat meerdere keren overkomen, ook bij de andere mensen van de groep die mee
waren. We vonden dit hoogst vervelend. Eigenlijk hadden we net hetzelfde
gevoel als vroeger toen we tot voor enkele jaren in Brussel Nederlands
praatten. We werden direct uitgescholden, of men deed alsof we niet bestonden. In
Brussel is het nu wel al verbeterd. Sommigen proberen wat Nederlands te praten,
anderen verontschuldigen zich, maar de meesten spreken het niet.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Vriendelijke groeten,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Luc Vanbrabant</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Oekene</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="word-spacing: 0px;">From: Diederik
Masure <</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="NL">didimasure@hotmail.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="NL">></span><br style="">
Subject: LL-L
"Language use" 2008.11.19 (01) [E]</span></p>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
</span>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
</span><p></p>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Hey
Heather, I recognise the story you just posted here, as I've had similar things
happen to me nearly every 2 weeks here. In my case it's even more
ridiculous! </span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="">
</span></p>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">As
some on here might know I'm a Fleming living in Amsterdam
in the Netherlands, have
been living here for 2 + 0.5 years now (one year inbetween, in Norway). </span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="">
</span></p>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">So
I do speak the same native language as the 'locals'. Of course I have a strong
Antwerp accent (stronger than average because of cultivating in the past
years), but ever since primary school I have been taught standard Dutch +
having lived so long from home has made me speak mainly standard Dutch with
regional accent when I'm in the Dam, using hardly any regional words or
constructions and with a much adapted pronunciation. </span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="">
</span></p>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">However
still, especially when I go to bars or restaurants, I am being replied to in
English. I know that Amsterdam
is a very touristy place, so Dutch people are used to speaking a lot of English
to foreigners here. But I ask something in Dutch, and I am more or less a
native speaker! This happens at least once or twice every 2 weeks. <br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
</span>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Even
when telling them in Dutch that I speak Dutch they continue in English as if
they didn't understand me. When I say in English that I am a native Dutch
speaker they still won't get the point. So I just switch to English along with
them to save hour long attempts o trying to tell them that they can actually
understand me altho they don't realise. <br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
</span>
<span style="word-spacing: 0px;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">More
embarassing yet is that in many of these cases from their first (English)
answer I can deduct that they actually understood what I said/ordered. I ask
something, and they answer my question in English! Isn't that awkward... so
they can't pretend not understanding me... strange, two natives of the same
language having to conversate in English because one refuses to acknowledge
that he actually understood that other person. Like a person from Marseille
speaking standard French would get served in English in Paris, just because the barkeeper hears he's
not from the capital! In France
the negative feelings towards English still prevent situations like this
occurring though, I guess</span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br>
Greetings, Diederik</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">David B. Frank</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:davidbfrank@gmail.com">davidbfrank@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.20 (02) [D/E]</span><br>
<br>
Hallo Lowlanders,<br>
<br>
Mijn Nederlands is zeker niet perfect. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Mensen horen meteen dat ik geen
Nederlander ben, maar ze kunnen het niet meteen horen dat ik Amerikaans of
Engelstalig ben. Dus gaan we meestal door in het Nederlands als ik in
Nederland een gesprekje met iemand voert. <br>
<br>
Mijn Nederlandse accent is heel tegenover van mijn Amerikaans, want ik spreek
het Engels met een redelijke sterke "Southern" accent. ("How
y'all doin'?", bijvoorbeeld). Maar in het Nederlands probeer ik zo
goed mogelijk een goede Nederlandse uitsprak te doen. Nou, het lukt niet
echt want je hoort dat ik geen Nederlander bent. Maar ik rol mijn 'r', ik
gebruik een harde Hollandse 'g', ik spreek mijn 'ui' uit als iemand van uit
Danville, Virginia als ze 'about the house' zeggen, ik spreek mijn 'eu' uit als
iemand uit North Wilkesboro, North Carolina als ze 'folk' zeggen. Dus
door het gebruik van deze en andere hulpmiddelen en ezelbruggetjes kan ik ten
minste mijn Engelstalige afkomst verbergen.<br>
<br>
Groeten van uit de kille Blue Ridge,<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">David B. Frank</span><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>