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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 November 2008 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology"</span><br>
<br>
Beste Ron, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I
can't help wondering if the word /Quiddje/ (/kwidje ~ kwitje/) is of Dutch
origin like other Low Saxon words of Northern Germany
that end with diminuitve –/je/ (such as /Buttje/, /Bontje/ and /Mattjes/). And
here comes my own hypothesis that /Quiddje/ (/kwidje ~ kwitje/) came from Dutch
/kwijt/ (dialectal and Western Low Saxon /kwiet/) in the sense of 'unable to
function' and 'helpless'. Doesn't this make sense? I think I'll add it to the
Wikipedia article with reference to this posting in our archive.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">We have the
expression "een rare kwiet" in Dutch, said of "a weird
guy". Dictionary Vandale relates it to "kwibus" (a fool), going
back to 1662, < Latin "quibus", 6de naamval van quis (welke) en
dan schertsend losgemaakt uit een Latijns zinsverband in Kerklatijn of
studententaal. "kwiet/kwid" ~ Latin "quid", sounds
plausible to me.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Or maybe
the word is cognate with English "quid", slang for "one
pound". Here "quid" also ~ to Latin "quid", but in the
sense "that what is essential, the nature of something". In the past,
people could be labelled after a coin, my last name is such an example.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Kind greetings,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);" lang="NL">Luc Hellinckx</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:roerd096@PLANET.NL">roerd096@PLANET.NL</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.21 (03) [E/LS]<br>
<br>
Hoi Marcus & Reindert,<br>
<br>
Markus, jij schreef dat in het Nederlands "kwytje" niet bestaat, maar
dat<br>
is niet helemaal waar. We kennen wel de uitdrukking "kwijtje spelen"
i.e.<br>
spelen dat je kwijt bent. "Kwijt" betekent "verloren",
"weggeraakt",<br>
dus "kwijtje spelen" is "doen alsof je kwijt/verloren/weg
bent".<br>
<br>
In het Zeeuws, en vroeger ook in het Hollands, is de vorm "kwietje"<br>
(met korte ie) of "kwitje" de juiste equivalent van NL
"kwijtje".<br>
<br>
Kwietje en vooral kwitje zijn qua uitspraak vrijwel identiek aan
"Quiddje".<br>
<br>
En is een "Quiddje" wellicht iemand die zich verloren voelt (de weg
kwijt is), omdat hij als niet-Noord-Duitser/niet-Nedersaks/niet-Hamburger de plaatselijke
zeden en taal niet goed begrijpt?<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Met vriendelijke groet<br>
Ingmar Roerdinkholder<br>
<br></span></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: Marcus Buck <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.21 (02) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: Etymology</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
A /Quiddje/ (~ /Quittje /~ /Quietje/) is someone who is not originally from</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Northern Germany, usually specifically from Hamburg or from the coast, is</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
not very familiar with local culture and does not know Low Saxon or</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Missingsch. It is also used to refer to a newbie or greenhorn among ships'</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
crews, someone that doesn't yet know the routines and doesn't have all the</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
necessary skills.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
According to the German Wikipedia (<a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiddje" target="_blank">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiddje</a>),</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
the origin of the word is obscure. Some believe it comes from French</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
/quitté/ used in connection with merchants' passes at (Hamburg's) city</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
gates.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I can't help wondering if the word /Quiddje/ (/kwidje ~ kwitje/) is of</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Dutch</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
origin like other Low Saxon words of Northern Germany
that end with</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
diminuitve "/je/ (such as /Buttje/, /Bontje/ and /Mattjes/). And here</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
comes</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
my own hypothesis that /Quiddje/ (/kwidje ~ kwitje/) came from</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Dutch /kwijt/</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
(dialectal and Western Low Saxon /kwiet/) in the sense of 'unable to</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
function' and 'helpless'. Doesn't this make sense? I think I'll add it to</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
the Wikipedia article with reference to this posting in our archive.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Dat is egentlich gegen de Wikipedia-Regeln: <</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Keine_Theoriefindung" target="_blank">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Keine_Theoriefindung</a></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
>. De Theorie is ok nich besünners wohrschienlich, denn twischen
/"kwijt"</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
/un "/Quiddje"/ fehlt de Form /"kwijtje"/, de dat op
Nedderlandsch nich</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
gifft.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Marcus Buck</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><br>
Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
Thanks, guys! Fancy our Ingster coming out of the woodwork!<br>
<br>
Thanks for confirming that <i>kwijtje</i> and <i>kwietje</i> are in fact used,
Ingmar. This is another case to show that one should not make up one's mind on
the basis of dictionaries alone.<br>
<br>
I have no problem with the semantic shift from "lost" to that of <i>Quiddje</i>
(which, as I mentioned previously, also occurs as <i>Quietje</i>, probably the
older form). A newly arrived stranger is "lost" after all. He or she can't
function well in strange surrounding, in a strange culture with a strange
language.<br>
<br>
Northern Low Saxon has <i>quit(t)</i> (<i>kwit</i>) and <i>quiet</i> (<i>kwyt</i>)
as well, pretty much in the same sense as the Dutch equivalents. <i>Quitt sien</i>
means 'be freed of all obligations associated with the conclusion of an interaction'.<br>
<br>
I listed the following likely Dutch loanwords in Northern Low Saxon of Germany:<br>
<br>
<i>Buttje</i> 'little boy'<br>
<i>Bontje</i> (< French <i>bon</i> 'good') 'piece of candy' ("goody")<br>
<i>Matjes</i> (type of soused herring, see <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/travels/taste-fish.php">http://lowlands-l.net/travels/taste-fish.php</a>)<br>
<br>
I should have mentioned the following adverb:<br>
<br>
<i>suutje</i> 'slowly and carefully' or 'gently' from Dutch <i>zoetjes</i> (from <i>zoet</i>
'sweet', possible inspired by French <i>doucement</i></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> 'gently' (actually "sweetly")</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">)<br>
<br>
(Low Saxon for 'sweet' is <i>sööt</i> (<i>soyt</i>) [zœ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";" lang="ZH-CN">ˑɪ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">t] ~ [z<span lang="ZH-CN">ɔˑɪ</span>t], while Dutch <i>zoet</i> is pronounced [zut]</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">.)<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>