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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 November 2008 - Volume 04<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.22 (01) [D/E]</span><br>
<br>
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:roerd096@PLANET.NL" target="_blank">roerd096@PLANET.NL</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:roerd096@PLANET.NL" target="_blank">roerd096@PLANET.NL</a>>>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br>
Markus, jij schreef dat in het Nederlands "kwytje" niet bestaat, maar
dat<br>
is niet helemaal waar. We kennen wel de uitdrukking "kwijtje spelen"
i.e.<br>
spelen dat je kwijt bent. "Kwijt" betekent "verloren",
"weggeraakt",<br>
dus "kwijtje spelen" is "doen alsof je kwijt/verloren/weg
bent".<br>
<br>
In het Zeeuws, en vroeger ook in het Hollands, is de vorm "kwietje"<br>
(met korte ie) of "kwitje" de juiste equivalent van NL
"kwijtje".<br>
<br>
Kwietje en vooral kwitje zijn qua uitspraak vrijwel identiek aan
"Quiddje".<br>
<br>
En is een "Quiddje" wellicht iemand die zich verloren voelt (de weg
kwijt is), omdat hij als niet-Noord-Duitser/niet-Nedersaks/niet-Hamburger de
plaatselijke zeden en taal niet goed begrijpt?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: R. F.
Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Thanks,
guys! Fancy our Ingster coming out of the woodwork!<br>
<br>
Thanks for confirming that /kwijtje/ and /kwietje/ are in fact used, Ingmar.
This is another case to show that one should not make up one's mind on the
basis of dictionaries alone.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Ik heff natürlich googelt, bevör ik hier de Thees opstell, dat dat dat
Woord "kwijtje" nich gifft. Ik heff sehn, dat dat "kwijtje
spelen" gifft. "verloren spelen" is aver _ganz wied_ weg vun
Quiddje. Denn mutt al en Nawies her, dat dat fröher ok allgemeen bruukt worrn
is. Ik bün mi temlich seker, dat dat Plattdüütsche keen Wöör ut nedderlandsche
Dialekten övernahmen hett. Entweder ut de Standardspraak oder dat Woord mutt in
all Dialekten dortwischen vörkamen (wenn sik dat also as "Well" na de
Wellentheorie utbreedt hett). </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Oder de drüdde Mööglichkeit: Dat en
enkelte Person den Utdruck präägt hett un de sik denn allgemeen dörsett hett.
Denn is allens mööglich.<br>
<br>
Op jeden Fall dücht mi, dat "een, de sik verloren föhlt" _keen_ gode
Grundlaag is, för een Utdruck, de keen "Autonym" is, sünnern en
"Xenonym". De "inner Gemütslage" vun de Frömmen hett de
Hambörgers gewiss nix scheert.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Marcus
Buck</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><br>
Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
Oh, oh, Marcus! Confident that there are <b>no</b> Dutch loans in Northern Low
Saxon of Germany (unless all varieties in between have them)?! That isn't very
open-minded, is it?<br>
<br>
How would you then explain the case of <i>suutje</i> which has the Dutch vowel (<i>zoetjes</i>) instead
of the Low Saxon one (<i>öö</i> ~ <i>eu</i>)?<br>
<br>
Eastern Friesland's dialects have many Dutch loans due to centuries of contacts
with the Netherlands.
The dialect border between Eastern Friesland
and areas to the south and east of it have been pretty fluid.<br>
<br>
Dutch-speaking immigrants founded communities and even towns in many parts of
Northern Germany, all the way to Northern Friesland and Eastern Prussia. Near Hamburg there are for
instance Friedrichstadt (where Dutch was an official language for a while),
Glückstadt and Altes Land. Many were Mennonites, Remonstrants and Dutch
Catholics. They contributed technology and probably some culture. Why not
words?<br>
<br>
Hamburg in particular had longstanding direct ties
with Amsterdam
and also with other Dutch-speaking cities. Most of them were commercial, but
there was a lot of intermarriage and migration also, as well as religious
contacts. Dutch family names have long been represented in Hamburg in good numbers (some of which
became nativized because of linguistic similarities). We have to mention that Hamburg merchant families used to settle especially in Amsterdam and Rotterdam,
and Dutch merchant families used to settle in Hamburg. Copenhagen
had a specific Dutch part of town, virtually all immigration having come via Hamburg. And there were notable
Jewish connections between Amsterdam, Hamburg and Copenhagen,
first Sephardic ones and then Ashkenazi ones, with intermarriages and traveling
Gentile employees. <br>
<br>
Cultural and linguistic continua are good and fine. But they come to be
disrupted eventually, and sometimes all that's left of them is scattered enclaves.
Furthermore, people move around, establish enclaves elsewhere and most of their
imported heritage eventually disappears -- most, not necessarily all. Port and
merchant cities have always been anomalies, islands to themselves, although
they do influence their immediate surroundings. Seafarers, many of them hired by foreign shipping lines, brought with them this and
that from far and wide, especially foreign nautical terms, and some of them
came to be adopted by the general population (e.g. Hamburg Low Saxon <i>Törn</i> 'brief tour'
from English "turn"). (And they imported sea shanties and the shanty tradition from
British employ.) <br>
<br>
Dutch importations are more difficult to discern because of the similarities between
Dutch and Low Saxon. The suffix <i>-je</i> is not common in Low Saxon dialects around
the Lower Elbe. The few words that do have it are
pretty likely to be of Dutch origin, especially where such words have verifiable
Dutch equivalents. In some cases this is verifiable and commonly accepted, such
as in the case of <i>Matjeshering < Matjes(heern) < Maatjesharing < Maagdenharing</i>,
a medieval Dutch invention.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
</span></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: blue;">Op jeden Fall dücht mi, dat "een, de sik verloren
föhlt" _keen_ gode Grundlaag is, för een Utdruck, de keen
"Autonym" is, sünnern en "Xenonym". De "inner
Gemütslage" vun de Frömmen hett de Hambörgers gewiss nix scheert.</span></span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: blue;"></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: blue;">
<br>
</span>Who talked about "feeling" and "mental state"? I sure didn't. As in English "he <u>is</u> lost"
can mean "he lost his way" or "he can't function" (e.g. "He's lost without her/his
laptop"). There isn't much of a semantic leap going on here.<br>
<br>
Kumpelmenten,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>