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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 December 2008 - Volume 04<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Resources" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">> From:
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <<a href="mailto:Kreimer@jpberlin.de">Kreimer@jpberlin.de</a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (03) [E/LS]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">>
Reinhard F. Hahn wiiter:<br>
><br>
> Non-distinction of diphthongs and long monophthongs leads to<br>
> mispronunciation among learners. Ideally therefore, they ought to be<br>
> distinguished everywhere.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Ron,<br>
<br>
I don't think the idea that "this will make it easier for learners"
is a<br>
very good argument.<br>
<br>
When I was learning Russian, for example, the fact that vowel length was<br>
more or less random and yet not marked was a bit of a drag. I did think,<br>
however that no Russian should have to spend every day of his life<br>
dealing with orthographic junk that he doesn't need, just so that I can<br>
learn the language more easily. So I was marking the length in my<br>
vocabulary book, where's the problem in that?<br>
<br>
When children go to school, they're already not mispronouncing their<br>
language, so while they may be learning to read it, this isn't a problem<br>
for them.<br>
<br>
When it comes to foreign learners, if they can't be bothered with such<br>
difficulties, then they'd never learn the language properly anyway. If<br>
they really want to learn, then it's all part of the experience.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br>
<br>
----------<br>
</span><br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: Orthography<br>
<br>
Sandy,<br>
<br>
In this context, if not all contexts, I meant by "learners" everyone that
learns a new word or expression. This can be a second-language learner or a
native speaker learner, or a researcher. If the native orthography is
inadequate to tell the learner the pronunciation then a secondary system needs
to be utilized in any reference work worth consulting. <br>
<br>
In the case of English dictionaries, good encyclopedias and textbooks, some
sort of auxiliary phonetic script is used in addition to regular spelling of a
key word. The English Wikipedia only does this in cases of rarely occurring
names. So you need to consult other dictionaries if you do not know the
pronunciation of a given word.<br>
<br>
In better Russian reference works, main stress is marked in all key words or
otherwise newly introduced words and expressions, since Russian stress
assignment is not consistently predictable. Fortunately, the Russian Wikipedia
people follow this tradition of using accent marks in key words. The same can
be said of the Ukrainian edition. One Belarusian edition does it inconsistently
and the other does not do it at all.<br>
<br>
The German Wikipedia uses no system to indicate phonological detail, not even
where stress and vowel length are not predictable. (Bear in mind that German
stress and vowel length are not always predictable.) It only gives the foreign
pronunciation in cases of foreign words and names. The same applies to the
Latvian, Lithuanian, Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian editions in which stress and
tones are never indicated, although they are indicated in better dictionaries
and encyclopedias for these languages.<br>
<br>
No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the regular
orthography does all that is required to know the pronunciation, unless there
are exceptions in foreign names. This is the case for instance in Czech, Estonian,
Finnish, Karelian, Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.<br>
<br>
Stress is largely predictable in Low Saxon. Furthermore, the foremost systems
indicate vowel length. So, whichever of the more used systems you use, the
system is in fact someone superior in this regard to the German system. There
is only the issue of distinguishing certain diphthongs from long monophthongs
where the "casual" variants of the writing systems do not distinguish them. The
systems proposed and widely used in Germany do come with devices to
make the distinctions, and the creator recommended using them</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">, which is what better dictionary do</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">. While I would
like to see them used everywhere, my point is that reference and teaching
materials at the very least ought to use these devices, since they are supposed to be
resources that are consulted by "learners," however you define this word.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>