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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 December 2008 - Volume 08<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]</span><br>
<br>
> From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> Subject: Orthography<br>
><br>
> Sandy,<br>
><br>
> In this context, if not all contexts, I meant by "learners"
everyone<br>
> that learns a new word or expression. This can be a second-language<br>
> learner or a native speaker learner, or a researcher. If the native<br>
> orthography is inadequate to tell the learner the pronunciation then a<br>
> secondary system needs to be utilized in any reference work worth<br>
> consulting.<br>
<br>
So are you saying that stress should be marked in everyday Russian<br>
orthography for the sake of native speakers as well?<br>
<br>
That vowels should always be written in Arabic?<br>
<br>
> No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the<br>
> regular orthography does all that is required to know the<br>
> pronunciation, unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is<br>
> the case for instance in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian,<br>
> Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.<br>
<br>
I don't know all those languages but I do (or I should probably say "did<br>
once"!) know Czech.
As usual, generalised statements only seem to hold<br>
water until we run into a language I'm familiar with.<br>
<br>
An important point about Czech, I think, is that the sounds of the<br>
language lend themselves to a simple orthographic system: it has the<br>
five basic vowels, long or short, and a few diphthongs. The stress is<br>
almost completely regular (well, at least learners won't run into too<br>
many problems if they assume that it is).<br>
<br>
It's true that Czech orthography is reasonably regular. I think it's<br>
true what you say: if you see a word you can pronounce it, although the<br>
rules for getting the voicings and devoicings right are at the level<br>
where this seems easy to native speakers but not to true learners.<br>
<br>
As for the other way round, it's not at all true that if you hear a word<br>
in Czech you'll know how to write it, as evinced by the many mistakes in<br>
"greengrocers' Czech" around Prague,
particularly with respect to the<br>
u-circle, voicings and devoicings and consonantal prepositions.<br>
<br>
And not every language lends itself to orthographic purity so easily.<br>
There's the objection in English that it's not easy to devise an<br>
orthography that will work for all English speakers, as I've been<br>
saying, but it's worse than that. In English (and to a slightly lesser<br>
extent in Scots), people using different dialects perceive unstressed<br>
vowels to have been dropped and others pronounce them. Unstressed vowels<br>
tend to be pronounced as a schwa, making it difficult to decide how to<br>
spell a word from the sound of it alone, and this varies widely too. And<br>
then again their vowel and diphthong systems clash.<br>
<br>
I think this sort of thing is the motivation for hanging on to<br>
etymological roots in orthographic systems.<br>
<br>
So no, I don't count natives filling in their knowledge of the language<br>
with a few new words learned from time to time count as "learners".
The<br>
fact that some reference works aren't good enough is no reason to add<br>
stuff to the orthography itself. The only improvements needed are in the<br>
reference works.<br>
<br>
I also discount language researchers: they should be in the field, not<br>
in the library :)<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a></span><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Orthography<br>
<br>
Sandy:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">So
are you saying that stress should be marked in everyday Russian<br>
orthography for the sake of native speakers as well?<br>
<br>
That vowels should always be written in Arabic?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
No, Sandy. What I mean is that the full orthography or added auxiliary notation
should be shown as a minimum for key words or new vocabulary items in reference
material, which is what is done in all good dictionaries and textbooks.<br>
<br>
All my Russian dictionaries show stress assignment in all keywords and all
Russian textbooks show stress assignment at least with the introduction of new
words. My Hebrew and Arabic reference and teaching material show the vowels,
while not in all texts, in all vocabulary introductions.<br>
<br>
Dictionaries and encyclopedias meant to be for native speakers as well ought to
have pronunciation help for keywords as well, because native speakers, too,
don't necessarily know the pronunciation of spelled words that are new to them.
All better English ones have this. <br>
<br>
If ordinary spelling does not fully indicate it, pronunciation ought to be
shown in some other way in reference and teaching material.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>
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