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<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">L O W L A N D S - L - 04 January
2009 - Volume 04<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <strong style="cursor: pointer;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: normal;">Luc Hellinckx <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></strong><br>
Subject: Idiomatica<br>
<br>
Beste Marlou,<br>
<br>
You wrote:<br>
<br>
Luc: you said:<br>
But I'm anticipating a little...given the approximately 2 000 M people on this
world who are speaking either English or German as a first or second language
(who both use "next" / "nächste" in this case), my
"noste" (= naaste, superlative of na(ar) - nader - naast) won't be
entirely out of tune by the time Dutch gets its ass whooped.<br>
Mark:<br>
Well, in the same place we Afrikaners also say 'volgende', & logic argues
for retention. Nowww, which is nearest - to the present year: The year past or
the year to come? Now you may argue context gives that information, which is
true, but you need it.<br>
I beg your pardon, this is Tüdelkram. The noste, naaste, next, nächste etc.
year is always the year to follow. The year past is out of reach by the laws of
physics, unless you are able to surpass the speed of light. If I say today:
"Next year I will do this", I mean 2010. Basta. Even though 2010 is
al long way and 2008 is only just gone.<br>
<br>
Much more amusing is the northern german custom of saying "This tuesday we
will have a meeting" in contrast to "Next tuesday we will have a
meeting." (I think this has been discussed already here, hasn't it?) Now
what is "this" tuesday? It is in fact the next tuesday to come. The
nearest tuesday. In Hamburg
at least it is so. The people of this extraordinary town are some time ahead of
time, quite without the help of relativity and speed greater than that of
light. "Next tuesday" is the tuesday after. I have seen people miss
meetings on these grounds. A Hamburg
man said "Next tuesday", an Austrian man came -- this tuesday! It
would have been clearer simply to say "We will have a meeting on
tuesday." (This would mean *this* tuesday, of course.)<br>
<br>
The height of confusion would be to say "this tuesday" on a tuesday
in Hamburg! :-))<br>
<br>
Indeed, "next" only applies to the future, because for daily use,
time is unidirectional. However, I think I understand why Hamburgers are doing
this. When you're "inside" a certain time span (week/month/year),
everybody will refer to it with "this"/"Diese"
(week/month/year), in order to distinguish it from the following/nächste
(week/month/year). So logically speaking, you could also say "this"
Tuesday, but only if you're saying it during that very Tuesday (in opposition
to coming Tuesdays in the future). Calling it like that in advance breaks the
logic.<br>
<br>
On the other hand, many people will also say "this summer", if today
they're talking about the summer of 2009, even though summer is not yet
around...soooooo *mmm*. Guess you can say it, if it's expressed during the year
2009. Which would mean that "this summer", when being said on
31/12/2008 would be the summer of 2008, but on 1/1/2009 it would refer to the
summer of 2009. So, on a weekly basis, "this Tuesday" could make
sense if we first agree when the week starts, some choose Sunday, some Monday.
In order to avoid confusion, maybe just better stick to a universal
"next" for whatever comes up first *s*.<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">In Brabantish, when being "inside" a certain time frame, we
usually say "van", like: "van-daag", "van de
wèèk", "van de mojnd", "van de zomer", "van 't
jaar"...= </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">"today",
"this week", "this month", summer 2009, "this
year". The opposite of "naaste" (next, nächste) is
"passeede", clearly a loanword of French: "passeede wèèk",
"passeede mojnd".<br>
<br>
It all depends on how you look at time. I was once told that by default the old
Greek were looking to the past, and the future was always hitting them in the
back. They viewed themselves as if they were walking forward, but with their
back forward, constantly looking in some sort of rearview mirror.<br>
<br>
Kind greetings,<br>
<br>
Luc Hellinckx<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Idiomatica"</span><br>
<br>
Beste Diederik & Marlou, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Diederik
wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">> I
never heard people say "drie een half" in any Dutch dialect for half
past three...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Really??? I
think roughly one out of three Dutch speaking Belgians will say
"drie-en-half" instead of "halfvier". The isoglosse is very
sharp by the way: Merchtem (and everything more to the South) will say
"drie-en-half", but everything more to the North (Steenhuffel for
example) won't.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Marlou
wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">><span style="font-family: times new roman,serif;">what do
your people say when it is 15:15 h?</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">"Kwart na drie" = "kottier na d'n
draan" (B) and 15:45 = "kwart voor vier" = "kottier vöö de
viern" (B). </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Half
the hour marks the limit where looking back will switch to looking forward.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Kind
greetings,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Luc
Hellinckx</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">PS: No
doubt that the perception of time plays a very important role in culture (look
at my other message ~ the Greek & fate, the Indians and number 0...).
Describing a location is just as important however (look at how Turks deal with
prepositions)...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>