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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 January 2009 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">Mike Morgan</span> <<a href="mailto:mwmosaka@gmail.com" target="_blank">mwmosaka@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.01.03 (02) [E]<br>
<br>
> It would have been clearer simply to say<br>
> "We will have a meeting on tuesday." (This would mean *this*
tuesday, of<br>
> course.)<br>
<br>
the solution used in Japanese Deaf culture (and I am sure a solution<br>
used in other cultures as well) is to refer to events ALWAYS by their<br>
date. I was forever, even after 15 years being in the midst of it<br>
daily, translating when people asked me "Will you be there on 14 Feb"<br>
that they mean "Tuesday 3 weeks from now"!<br>
<br>
Mike || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">マイク</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="ZH-CN"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">|| </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">माईक</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">|| Мика || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Shruti;" lang="GU">માઈક</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="GU"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">|| </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Sylfaen;">მაიქ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Raavi;" lang="PA">ਮਾਈਕ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
</span><span dir="rtl" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HE">מייק</span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span>
|| </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Latha;" lang="TA">மாஇக்</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="TA"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">|| Miqueu || U C > || <span dir="rtl" lang="AR-SA">ما یک</span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span> || Mihangel<br>
================<br>
Dr Michael W Morgan<br>
Managing Director Ishara Foundation Mumbai (Bombay), India<br>
++++++++++++++++<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">माईकल</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">मोर्गन</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> (</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">पी</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI">.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">एच</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI">.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">डी</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI">.) </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">मेनेजिंग</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">डॉयरेक्टर</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">ईशारा</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">फॉउंडेशन</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> (</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Mangal;" lang="HI">मुंबई</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="HI"> )</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
++++++++++++++++<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">茂流岸マイク</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">(</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">言語学博士</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">) </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">イシャラ基金の務理事</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: PMingLiU;" lang="ZH-CN">・</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">事務局</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">長</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="ZH-CN"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">ムンバイ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">(</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">ボンベイ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">)</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: SimSun;" lang="ZH-CN">、インド</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 131, 145);">Mark Dreyer</span> <<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net" target="_blank">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.01.03 (02) [E]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(121, 6, 25);" lang="PT-BR">Beste Marlou</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="PT-BR"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="PT-BR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="PT-BR">Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="PT-BR"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark said:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Well,
in the same place we Afrikaners also say 'volgende', & logic argues for
retention. Nowww, which is nearest - to the present year: The year past or the
year to come? Now yo</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">u
may argue context gives that information, which is true, but you need it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Marlou, you
say:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I beg your
pardon, this is Tüdelkram. The noste, naaste, next, nächste etc. year is always
the year to follow. The year past is out of reach by the laws of physics,
unless you are able to surpass the speed of light. If I say today: "Next
year I will do this", I mean 2010. Basta. Even though 2010 is al long way
and 2008 is only just gone.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Thanks for
that, Marlou. Incidentally, does this apply to all dialects across the board?
Messinch?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Just by the
way this isn't so in Afrikaans I wonder if it can be so in Dutch? The way we
use 'naaste' it <b>has</b> to be more open. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">For example,
"Maaandag naaste aan die eerste van die maand." </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">= (Monday nearest the first of the
month) for a date as prescribed through every month of the year, like my wife's
dancing classes. It may be that the Monday in question comes two days before
the first, or in another case a day later. 'Volgende' leaves no room for doubt.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">A propos of
your next observation, one can have the same problem between English- &
Afrikaans- speakers. Under the circumstances we prefer to say
"...Dinsdag." for that day this week, or "...hierdiee
Dinsdag." to make sure, & "...aankomende Dinsdag" for the
Tuesday a week over" (Dinsdag oor 'n week, as in 'môre oormôre').</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Marlou:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Much more
amusing is the northern german custom of saying "This tuesday we will have
a meeting" in contrast to "Next tuesday we will have a
meeting." (I think this has been discussed already here, hasn't it?)
Now what is "this" tuesday? It is in fact the next tuesday to come.
The nearest tuesday. In Hamburg
at least it is so. The people of this extraordinary town are some time ahead of
time, quite without the help of relativity and speed greater than that of
light. "Next tuesday" is the tuesday after. I have seen people
miss meetings on these grounds. A Hamburg
man said "Next tuesday", an Austrian man came -- this tuesday! It
would have been clearer simply to say "We will have a meeting on tuesday."
(This would mean *this* tuesday, of course.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">The height
of confusion would be to say "this tuesday" on a tuesday in
Hamburg! :-))</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Yrs,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S. By the
way, what exactly is Tudelkram? (pardon - I can't find the diacritic).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Diederik Masure</span> <<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com" target="_blank">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.01.03 (04) [D/E]<br>
<br>
Luc: the other way arround it happened to "a nadder" or in Dutch
"een nadder" which then lost its n and became adder, but Latin natrix
still has the n. <br>
It can also happen with an l- from romance languages, as in
"lommer(te)" meaning shade, from French l'ombre. <br>
<br>
I never heard people say "drie een half" in any Dutch dialect for
half past three... but my Irish friend here used to confuse us all by saying
"lets meet at half three" or "I'll see you guys at half
nine" all the time. He means "half past three", "half past
nine" but by omitting "past" all the Dutch and Norwegian people
here automatically make it into their own "half drie" and "half
negen". <br>
<br>
Greetings, Diederik<br>
<br>
----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">M.-L. Lessing</span> <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de" target="_blank">marless@gmx.de</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.01.03 (02) [E]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Dear Luc, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">what do your people say when
it is 15:15 h? In northern germany
we say "Viertel nach drei", in some southern and eastern areas they
say "Es ist ein Viertel vier". So from the first minute past
15:00, they look ahead to the completion of 16:00. This is a strange way of
thinking to me. They never look back in time. We here look back to the 15:00 at
least an half hour; when it is 15:20 we say "20 nach drei". Only
15:30 is "halb vier", and from then also the northern german people
look ahead to 16:00 saying "20 vor vier" and "Viertel vor vier".
By the way, "Viertel vor vier" is "dreiviertel vier" in
some southern regions. The full hour is alyways considered as the main actor,
even if time is a fraction of this full hour. I can't help thinking this
way of expressing time has to do with the feeling for time and thus with
character. How we express things must influence what we think of them. --
Another such (private) suspicion of mine is that France has produced so many
glorious mathematicians because of their odd way of counting. Counting in French
is, you know, half calculating already, much more so than in other
languages. A french child that can count to 100 can do multiplications and sums
and all that automatically and immediately can start into Legendre-polynomes,
Lagrange-functions, Fourier-transformations, Cauchy-criteria etc. :-) No
wonder every second name in the history of maths is french. Complication can be
useful in posing challenges and training to human mind! At least I suspect
it is so; it would be much trouble to prove scientifically the influence of
french counting on the production rate of maths geniuses over, say, 5
generations. -- Well, germans have produced Gauß and Euler, that must do for
us. Gauß surely does, good old Gauß! :-)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Hartlich!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Marlou</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">-----
Original Message ----- </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> <a href="mailto:lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" title="lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM">Lowlands-L List</a> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">To:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> <a href="mailto:LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank" title="LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> Sunday, January 04, 2009 2:57 AM</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> LL-L "Idiomatica"
2009.01.03 (04) [D/E]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span> <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" target="_blank">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"<br>
<br>
Beste Marlou,<br>
<br>
On a same note, roughly speaking, half of the people here say "half
vier" when the time is 15:30, and the other say "drie en
half"...*s*<br>
<br>
Kind greetings,<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
<br>
Luc Hellinckx</span><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.01.03 (03) [E]<br>
<br>
</span>> From: <a href="mailto:KarlRein@aol.com">KarlRein@aol.com</a><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.01.03 (02) [E]<br>
><br>
> It is amusing to me to read about this "Northern German custom";
it is<br>
> also a generalized custom in the United States (and, I suspect, in<br>
> many other countries). I have tested this in language classes, and<br>
> loud arguments come forth over what "next Thursday" means if it
is<br>
> said, let us say, on Monday. I once phoned a business person I had<br>
> been expecting for an hour, and he told me, not at all confused, that<br>
> according to his schedule, he was due to call on me in a week. I<br>
> suspect that this confusion is quite universal.<br>
<br>
> Karl Reinhardt</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">In Scotland, this
is treated in a quite specific way.<br>
<br>
The week is from Sunday to Saturday.<br>
<br>
So on a Friday, say, "next Sunday" means two days hence, "this<br>
Wednesday" was two days ago, while "last Wednesday" is Wednesday
of last<br>
week. "Next Saturday" is eight days hence, and you would say
"tomorrow"<br>
rather than "this Saturday".<br>
<br>
If the day referred to is yesterday or tomorrow, then "yesterday" or<br>
"tomorrow" is used rather than using the this/next terminology.<br>
<br>
So "this" is used for the Sunday to Saturday we're in,
"next" for the<br>
Sunday to Saturday coming up, and "last" for the previous Sunday to<br>
Saturday. This can be extended to cover five weeks by saying "next<br>
again" to indicate two weeks hence (the Sunday to Saturday), or eg
"the<br>
Saturday before last" for two weeks ago (the Sunday to Saturday, as<br>
always).<br>
<br>
In England and Wales, by
contrast, people seem to be vague about which<br>
day is the first day of the week, and tend to just say "next" for the<br>
next day of that name and so on, although this can become vague if we<br>
say "next Saturday" when this Saturday is tomorrow or very close.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Sandy Fleming (Time Lord :)<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From:
R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Idiomatica<br>
<br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
For what it's worth, the Scottish system as described by oor Sandy abuin is the
only one that really makes sense to me, because it is based only on week divisions
irrespective of past and future within a given week. <i>Voilà</i> the no-Tüdelkram
Scottish approach. No wonder I have an escotophile streak.<br>
<br>
About <i>Tüdelkram</i>, please check out the next "Etymology" edition, Mark <i>et al</i>.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span>