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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 05 January 2009 - Volume 05<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Etymology" 2009.01.05 (03) [E]</span><br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
Thanks for the compliments, Marlou and Mark. /You guys ...!/ (he says blushing)<br>
<br>
Seriously, here's the continuation of word sleuthing and some homework for all
you etymologists at all levels.<br>
<br>
I wrote:<br>
<br></span></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">/Tüdelkram/ is a Missingsch and (from derived from it) casual Northern German
word for something like "nonsense", but not necessarily with such a
harsh sound, more in the sense of "convoluted stuff", which is pretty
much the literal translation.</span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
It is based on Low Saxon /Tütelkraam/ (/tuytelkraam/). In other dialects it is
/Tüterkraam/ (/tuyterkraam/). (You can also write it with a "d"
instead of a "t", but that's a different matter to be taken up
elsewhere.) This in turn is based on /Tüter/ (/tuyter/) 'string', 'cord',
'thread', 'yarn', 'rope', anything that can be rolled up. More specifically it
means 'messed-up (convoluted) ball of yarn, rool of rope, etc.' Hence the
expression /in de(n) Tüter kamen/ 'to get mixed up', 'to get confused' (both
referring to a string etc. and the person that does the rolling up). It's
extension is /Tüterband/ (/tuyterband/) ~ /Tütelband/ (/tuytelband/) 'string'
(often specifically a piece of string with which to make figures in a game).</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Derived from it is the verb /tütern/ (/tuytern/) ~ /tüteln/ (/tuyteln/) 'to
bind', 'to string up', 'to talk nonsense', 'to work slowly and inefficiently'.
Derived from this is the adjective/adverb /tüterig/ (/tuyterig/) 'confused',
'potty' (in the non-American sense).</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Now we ought to try to identify the root and its possible meaning.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Remember what I often say about frequentive suffixes in verbs? They are /-r-/
for habitual action (/tüüt-r- -> tütern/) and /-l-/ for "small"
repetitive action (/tüüt-l- -> tüteln/). This makes the root */tüüt-/. I go
out on a limb and say that it once was */tuut- /later to be umlauted under the
influence of a following high vowel.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
The noun /Tüter/ 'string', 'cord', 'thread', 'yarn', 'rope' seems somewhat odd
we mostly recognize /-er/ because the deverbal nominal suffix as marking a
(habitual) doer, such as "baker", "liar" and
"singer", which is the same in Low Saxon. But it is not impossible
that /Tüter/ was derived from the verb /tütern/.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
At any rate, it looks to be that we are left with the root */tüüt- <
/*/tuut-/.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
There are two Modern Low Saxon nouns /Tüüt/ that I can think of, and neither
appears to be related to the above:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
/Tüüt ~ Tütt/ 'certain types of snipe' (/calidrid/, '/charadriida/')</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
/Tüüt ~ Tuut/ (< /Tüte/ ~ /Tute/ > German /Tüte/) 'paper-bag'</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Paper bags were originally cone-shaped, pointed and were made by vendors before
filling them (in times before they came to be glued), hence the Low Saxon
"nickname" /Tütendreier/ (/tuytendrayer/) "paper-bag
turner" for a grocery shop keeper or market vendor. While
"turning" is involved here, I do not think this is related to /Tüter/
and /tütern/ ~ /tüteln/. Much rather, I assume we are dealing with the verb
/tuten/ (/tuut-/) 'to toot'. The paper cones suggest trumpets, and children did
indeed make play trumpets in the same manner.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
So what /is/ the root */tüüt- < /*/tuut- /from which words related to
rolling up, threading and weaving are derived? So far I have not been able to
make a connection from it to words in older Germanic languages.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
So there's your homework.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Reinhard/Ron</span></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>According
to Grimm the words are not related. "tüdern" is from
"tüder" (kind of peg to fasten cattle on the meadows).
"tüder" is related to English "tether". "tüdeln"
according to the Grimm entry "tudeln" could be related to German
"zotteln" and originally meant something like 'to tousle' (still
present in "betüdeln" for example). Both words have an etymological
'd'. The semantic similarities (Tüderbüdel~Tüdelbüdel) are not original and a
product of contamination. "tünen" according to Grimm is from
"tuun" (fence) and is based on a similar semantic shift like
"spinnen" (to spin [textiles] - to be bonkers).<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Marcus Buck</span><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
Thanks, Marcus!<br>
<br>
Aha! So there is a /d/ there after all, derived from /ð/!<br>
<br>
It goes back to Indo-European *<i>deu-</i> "to fasten" +
instrumentive suffix *<i>-tro-</i> > Germanic *<span class="foreign"><i>teudran</i></span>
><br>
<br>
Old Frisian <span class="foreign"><i>tiader</i></span><br>
Middle Dutch <i>tuder</i> > Modern Dutch <i>tuier</i><br>
Old Norse <span class="foreign"><i>tjoðr</i> > </span>Swedish <span class="foreign"><i>tjuder</i>, Danish <i>tøjr</i></span><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>