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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">==========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 09 January 2009 - Volume 07<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.01.09 (01) [E]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">> From:
M.-L. Lessing <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.01.08 (02) [E]<br>
></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">> As to the finer sight and hearing of the bushmen, I
would love to see<br>
> the Jupiter moons without a glass or telescope! I had not heard it of<br>
> the bushmen, but I have read a similar thing about native americans:<br>
> They were able to see *by daylight* not only the moon (when there),<br>
> which we also can, but several bright stars/planets. Not at dawn, but<br>
> in the bright afternoon. The colonists wondered and controlled the<br>
> points the natives had shown in the sky, and it turned out that they<br>
> fitted well with the astronomical positions of the planets. -- Perhaps<br>
> Reinhard knows something as to the truth of this myth or non-myth?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">As a
long-time naked-eye observer I wouldn't put the moons of Jupiter<br>
thing as such an outstanding feat. These would be quite clearly visible<br>
in the night sky if they weren't obscured by the glare of Jupiter so<br>
given the clear skies of the bush and frequent observation and a few<br>
individuals with extra-sharp eyesight I don't see why they shouldn't<br>
know a thing or two about them.<br>
<br>
When I was a habitual observer I could also tell people where planets<br>
and stars were by full daylight. It's not that I could actually see them<br>
(except for the moon), it's that I was so used to the rhythms in the sky<br>
I just knew where they were whether I could see them or not.<br>
<br>
I suspect therefore that this is yet another case of "the natives"<br>
playing tricks on unsuspecting anthropologists :)<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
</span>From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.01.06 (07) [E]</span><br>
<br>
> From: M.-L. Lessing <<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.01.05 (06) [E]<br>
><br>
> thank you for the info, Luc & Reinhard! This idea of language<br>
> influencing 3-dimensional thinking is most fascinating, but surely<br>
> must be considered cum grano salis. If there is a statistically<br>
> significant effect like what you describe, I see three possibilities:<br>
<br>
I would hardly ascribe the effect of ones native language such<br>
importance. In learning sign languages, for example, in the end I stop<br>
having trouble with the fact that sign languages work in three<br>
dimensions and thus express positions, scales and so on with a high<br>
degree of precision and conciseness, and I'm quite sure that this<br>
doesn't confer superior football skills on Deaf players!<br>
<br>
> Does anyone know, read, admire Peter Dickinson? He is a writer of<br>
> novels and crime stories, of a sort that really stuns me. In one of<br>
> his books, "The poison oracle", he describes a people whose
language<br>
> cannot express causality. In effect of this (!) they have no idea (!)<br>
> of the cause-and-effect concept. Their brains cannot perceive<br>
> cause-and-effect mechanisms. This is a bold sketch, but Dickinson does<br>
> it all so well that you really think a people could survive without<br>
> his, despite the sharp teeth of natural selection. However when an<br>
> individual is isolated from the tribe and taught English, her brain is<br>
> quite capable of learning what causality is. -- Can this be<br>
> possible? We might need a neurologist here perhaps :-) For me it is<br>
> all guesswork, but I would love to know more.<br>
<br>
Yes, it's possible. Anyone who studies maths to university level will<br>
tell you that all sorts of new ideas can be learned: imaginary numbers,<br>
countable and uncountable infinities, topological spaces and so on,<br>
although there's nothing in any natural language to describe many of the<br>
features that you learn in mathematics. In physics you ultimately get<br>
that General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics seem to make sense,<br>
despite the more difficult bits being not actually well understood by<br>
anybody yet.<br>
<br>
I think there's also too much importance assigned to the power of<br>
natural language. Much of the power comes not from the words or grammar<br>
of the language but from metaphor. Natural languages often don't<br>
describe abstract concepts directly, but use metaphor to talk about<br>
abstractions in terms of something more concrete. Generally, if your<br>
language doesn't have a way of talking about a thing and people really<br>
need to talk about it, a metaphor will be created rather than new syntax<br>
or grammar.<br>
<br>
In English for example love and relationships are often spoken of as a<br>
journey rather than having ways of speaking about what we're really<br>
speaking about:<br>
<br>
The path of true love never did run smooth.<br>
We're at a crossroads.<br>
Their marriage is on the rocks.<br>
We're in for a bumpy ride.<br>
It's the parting of the ways.<br>
It's the end of the road.<br>
<br>
Organisation is often spoken about by speaking about plants:<br>
<br>
The local branch of the bank.<br>
My family tree.<br>
He's got roots.<br>
We're pruning the workforce.<br>
It's a growth area.<br>
<br>
and so on.<br>
<br>
I think that this means that ultimately it doesn't matter what tools<br>
your language provides you with, there are other ways of putting across<br>
you want to say.<br>
<br>
It can be interesting to look at a sentence and try to identify the<br>
metaphors. In the above sentence, for example, I see "tools", and<br>
"putting across" as metaphors for things that the English language<br>
doesn't seem to provide.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br>
</span></span></p>