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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 January 2009 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Luc Hellinckx</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language programming"</span><br>
<br>
Beste Sandy, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">It seems
obvious enough that there's some sort of nonsense going on</span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
<i>behind the idea of human beings who can't count past three. I suspect it</i><br>
<i>was just European colonials trying to say the natives are inferior.</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Maybe more
precise to say there's people who won't count past three (not "can't"
in the sense of being unable). I don't think anybody seriously means that a
normal human being is intellectually unable to count past three (or four *s*).
Every member of "homo sapiens" surely has those capacities. But
capacities they àre in my view, and they're not necessarily exploited. For
thousands of years most people considered it completely useless to be able to
read (in the West until the start of the 20th century in some places); I can
imagine that in pre-agricultural days, being able to calculate _well_, was
marginally more profitable (if you didn't want to become an outcast). Not only
that, but moreover, it wasn't always considered ethically right to exploit
those capacities. I think the Bible contains enough passages to show that man
who calculates, anticipates and reckons is not immediately considered an
example of high moral standards. Just think of the parable of the Pharisee and
the tax collector. Even today, banks, bankers and the financial world are not
yet automatically considered very humane in many parts of the Islamic world. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You
don't need language in order to count. Perhaps you need a language</span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
<i>of some sort (even if it's only the language of sticks and notches) to</i><br>
<i>_communicate_ numbers, but you don't need language to employ numbers as</i><br>
<i>a concept if you're a lone hunter.</i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Here's one
technique how to count without names for numbers beyond 4. From <a href="http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/%7Emattom/science+society/lectures/lecture3.html" target="_blank">http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~mattom/science+society/lectures/lecture3.html</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">(a site
maintained by Tomczak, a professor in Australia):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><a name="11ecd1cfdc2f77c1_numbers"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Counting</span></i></a><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> without numbers</span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 40px;" class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">If
primitive societies have no need to count and therefore do not develop names
for numbers beyond 4, when did the need to count arise? It could not have been
the large numbers of animals in a herd - the Australian Aborigines also
encountered many kangaroos during their hunting trips and were satisfied to say
that there were many kangaroos, enough to satisfy their need for food
and clothing. The need to establish the exact number of animals in a
herd arises as soon as this herd becomes private property and can be traded.</span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
<i>Does the owner of the herd need words for numbers beyond 4 to be able to
count his animals? Consider this problem: The owner of the herd asks you to
deliver 40 head of sheep to a friend of his and return proof of delivery. He
hands you a clay container, sealed with his personal stamp, containing 40
pebbles.</i><br>
<i><span style="color: black;">His friend will open the container and count the
sheep by picking up one pebble for every sheep. He will then give you a
receipt, for example a clay tablet with his personal stamp. By handing over the
clay tablet to the vendor you can offer proof that you delivered 40 head of
sheep as asked. Nobody involved in the transaction has to know the names of any
numbers or be able to count. Evidence that this method of "counting"
was widespread through several millennia is found in </span></i><a href="http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/%7Emattom/science+society/lectures/illustrations/lecture3/excavations.html" target="_blank"><i><span style="color: black; text-decoration: none;">excavations</span></i></a><i><span style="color: black;"> from Mesopotamia and retained in the English
language: Calculus is Latin for "pebble", so to
calculate means "to move pebbles."</span></i><br>
<i><span style="color: black;">This method, sometimes called counting by
association, works fine as long as the number of sheep is not too large. How do
you use pebbles to count very large numbers? You introduce pebbles of </span></i><a href="http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/%7Emattom/science+society/lectures/illustrations/lecture3/pebbles.html" target="_blank"><i><span style="color: black; text-decoration: none;">different shape</span></i></a><i><span style="color: black;">. This system
of counting was in use in many early societies of all continents.</span></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">The very
word "calculus" appears to be etymologically related to this
transaction of pebbles.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Kind
greetings,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Luc
Hellinckx</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Leslie Decker</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:leslie@familydecker.org">leslie@familydecker.org</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L Numbers</span><br>
<br>
Regarding the subject of numbers, I thought people here would be interested in
reading this blog post and the follow-up discussion on the ways different
English speakers groups things like telephone numbers when saying them.
In particular, it starts off with many Americans' (myself
included--though I didn't participate in this!) cognitive dissonance when
someone says "double" or "triple"when reading off a number
or letter sequence.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2007/01/double.html" target="_blank">http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2007/01/double.html</a><br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Leslie</span><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">M.-L.
Lessing</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language programming" 2009.01.12
(06) [E]</span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crhahn%5CLocal%20Settings%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
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</p><p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">there have been suggestions that language may
"format" the brain and now that it may "program" the brain.
What exactly is this formatting/programming, and what is the difference? (Any
neurologists around?) The formatting metaphor I spontaneously felt to be
plausible, partly because it is a fine metaphor :-) It would mean that any
common type of data can be written in every mind, only would be coded
differently. (A reassuring thought.) But if language "programs" the
mind, the consequences seem to imply actions and the behaviour of the individual. This
thought upsets me more. Please explain this a little more. It is so interesting
because it is all about our idea and image of what we humans are. Nobody likes
to feel so very conditional a being, having your brain branded by the first words
you heard as a baby. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now as to numbers and counting. I think we should make clear
what counting is. Counting is not a private sense of the right number. This
sense exists in many creatures. Mother duck knows exactly how many ducklings
have to be there before she leaves the nest. When all n-1 are collected around
her, she waits and calls for number n. Does this mean that she can count to 10?
My cousin's cat Emma had 5 young ones, of which one was killed on the road. For
months Emma went about the house and garden moaning and searching the
missing kitten. Could she count 5? There is a sense of number, differing from a
"sense of amount". But real counting should imply the *communication*
of numbers, so that numbers can be denominated exactly. This means that information
as to exact numbers must be important. This can be true in hunter-gatherers, as
somebody remarked here recently; they may have to count enemies or prey and to
communicate this to others. In this case, there must be names for the higher
numbers. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hartlich!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Marlou<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><span class="hccdpe"></span></span></p><p></p>