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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 January 2009 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mark Dreyer</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:mrdreyer@lantic.net">mrdreyer@lantic.net</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language programming" 2009.01.15
(05) [E]</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Hi,
Andrys:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject:
LL-L "Language programming"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Mark,
to my comment:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">"The
Jesuits say, "Give us a child until he is eight, & he will be ours
forever"</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Andrys,
you objected:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">At that
time, the notion of learning was akin to (classical or at best, operant)
conditioning.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Well I
slipped too lightly by this quote, but you picked it up smartly enough anyhow.
I don't disagree with you. I wonder if the Society of Jesus is of a different
opinion today. However this is what they expected to follow from their methods
& their expectations were generally met by experience. I agree that in
actuality, learning happens whether the object of the exercise is subject to
conditioning or not. So also for your other points in this reguard. The brain -
sorry - mind is far more flexible than they believed and essential learning
can and does occur continuously after 8. But so can brainwashing; or
alternatively, what they in the old USSR dubbed 'disinformation'; which amounts
to the input of data calculated to lead the subject to a reasonable conclusion
or action based on selective or false information. That also works.<br>
<br>
Andrys:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Further,
the Jesuits had an unshakeable belief in intelligent design,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I agree,
& concede that the concept of 'intelligent design' has irresolvable flaws.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Sandy</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">, The brain *does*
work *something* like a computer. it processes data.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Andrys:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">I
<strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">insist</span></strong> that this is so.
That is why we make them, to do what we don't have the time or leisure to do
ourselves. Conceding all your objections in the following passage, I don't
disagree, you are only telling me the brain is a less perfect instrument than
the computer: In certain limited respects (at present), true.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Andrys:</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Well,
mostly it doesn't work like a computer. The brain does not<br>
generally create either stores of data organised in any kind of lineal<br>
system, nor does it create logical algorithms or crawling retrieval<br>
systems. As far as we know knowledge domains and schema are much more<br>
like holistic imbroglios and retrieval is much more haphazardly dynamic.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark::</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Andrys, you
asked,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">"Wouldn't
recognition be an aspect of a sense of number? And vice versa?"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I don't
think so. Bearing in mind your point about the holistic properties of the
brain, recognition is an Aboelian operation involving sets of 'like' in a set
of 'one' among many, whereas counting is a collation of 'unlike' sets of 'one'
from 'one' to 'enth' among many. In the former, number is not important. Sort
through a box of documents for a certain letter from your Great-aunt
Jemima. You can go through the whole box & find the letter or not, & I
hope you do, without noting the number of documents. Alternatively you can
count the number of documents without looking for, or even noticing, any
specific one. Poor Great-aunt Jemima. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
Andrys:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">And aren't
these things always related to the observer?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mark:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Yes, but
how?<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Mark</span></span><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br></span></p>