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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 03 February 2009 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Theo Homan</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (05) [E]</span><br>
<br>
> From: Luc Hellinckx <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">[...]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">>
Referring to a Norwegian genitive construction you wrote:<br>
></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">[...]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">><br>
> The same construction is not only very common in</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">>
Brabantish, [...]<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I would say, it is rather common in dutch, although you would hardly find it in
written dutch, and neither in elevated spoken dutch.<br>
In grammar school in Amsterdam
I was told that this construction was no dutch.<br>
[And as the only lower class boy in school there were a lot more constructions
they make me change; even 'tram' I had now to pronounce as an english word.
Funny people, those higher class people.]<br>
<br>
<a href="http://vr.gr/" target="_blank">vr.gr</a>.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Theo Homan<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
</span>From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:clarkedavid8@aol.com">clarkedavid8@aol.com</a></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E</span><br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: LUCAS
ANNEAR <<a href="mailto:annear@wisc.edu" target="_blank">annear@wisc.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Idiomatica</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Dear
Lowlanders,<br>
<br>
I have a question regarding a genitive construction. In Norwegian it's
gradually becoming more acceptable to write constructions like:<br>
<br>
- Per sin bil ligger der borte. 'Per his car lies over there.' 'Per's car is
over there.'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
The construction you refer to is found in 17th century written English:
"Samuel Pepys his diary". I dont know where it came from, when it
started or why it disappeared from English. Perhaps a Netherlandish
influence from Dutch/Flemish dyke-builders and court painters? I thought it was
a feature of standard Dutch.<br>
<br>
David Clarke<br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Henno Brandsma</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl">hennobrandsma@hetnet.nl</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]<br>
<br>
</span><span style="color: black;">From: LUCAS ANNEAR <<a href="mailto:annear@wisc.edu" target="_blank">annear@wisc.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Idiomatica</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Dear Lowlanders,<br>
<br>
I have a question regarding a genitive construction. In Norwegian it's
gradually becoming more acceptable to write constructions like:<br>
<br>
- Per sin bil ligger der borte. 'Per his car lies over there.' 'Per's car is
over there.'<br>
<br>
or<br>
<br>
-Bilen min traff Kari sin bil. 'My car hit Kari his car.' 'My car hit
Kar's car.'<br>
<br>
especially when it is part of the subject of the sentence, and so I hear.<br>
<br>
I know that this construction exists in Frisian. Unfortunately I can't construct
my own sentences (just trying to read is difficult enough!), so I'll have to
borrow one that I found on the web as an example. (found here:<a href="http://netherlands.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=4588" target="_blank">http://netherlands.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=4588</a>)</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;" lang="DE">-Wylst it roet reinde út de himel syn
skimerwolken. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;">Meaning: "While the soot rained out the heaven (sky) his dusky
clouds" in an, I think, literal translation.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Indeed. Not
the easiest poet, Hettinga. I especially like his own readings of his work
(which I have on CD).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">There are 3
possible ways of forming a possesive like that in Frisian (Westerlauwer):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">1) Memme
fyts (mother's bicycle) [the oldest one, in this case a weak noun, like
"heite" from "heit" = father, with my name it would be a
more common -s: Henno's fyts)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">2) De fyts
fan mem [ almost universally possible in West-Germanic ]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">3) Mem har
fyts [ probably the most common one nowadays, with men and things it is
"syn": Henno syn fyts e.g. ]<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: black;"> To what
extent is found in the other Lowlands (and
Germanic) languages, and is there an origin that is generally agreed upon?
I don't think that I've seen it in Dutch, though I wouldn't be surprised
at all if it's found. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">It's
extremely common in colloquial Dutch, but almost never written, except when
wanting to really write "folksy". Note the weak form
"[z@n]" with schwa, not the strong "[zE.in]", is used, a
sort of clitic form. So writing z'n [as is often done in non-formal contexts]
is more appropriate.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I would
think it is the most common form in most dialects as well. Female form
"haar" has the clitic for "d'r" [d@r] in pronounciation:
"moeder d'r fiets", never the strong form, which sounds very
unnatural to me in this context. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I would
most tend to use this for living persons and animals, but other uses are also
common: de auto z'n stuur etc, although "het stuur van de auto" is more
common still and certainly the only written form.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">There might
be a relation to the fact that the so-called head of a noun phrase tends to be
on the right in West Germanic, and the "van" phrase leaves it on the
left, which is atypical. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Henno
Brandsma</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Wesley Parish</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:wes.parish@paradise.net.nz">wes.parish@paradise.net.nz</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]<br>
<br>
</span>FWIW, it is found in some early modern English dialects.
Unfortunately that<br>
isn't one of my strong areas, so I can't say exactly which ones - though I<br>
remember seeing it in a number of Elizabethan-era poems by Spencer et alii,<br>
but FWIW, I have used it in a mock-serious way in English:<br>
<br>
"Paddington Bear his Autobiography"<br>
<br>
I suspect Ron would know much more about this in English than I do.<br>
<br>
Ron, in your court again! ;)<br>
<br>
Wesley Parish<br>
<br>
On Tuesday 03 February 2009 10:54, Lowlands-L List wrote:<br>
<snip><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: Syntax<br>
<br>
Hey, Wes, and thanks … I think!<br>
<br>
I'm afraid I'm having to defer to others. I seem to know as much about it as
you do and have long been wondering if it has really disappeared from all
British dialects.<br>
<br>
I'm with David in wondering if it is due to Netherlandic influence, considering
that this was the Dutch-speaking world her grand time, many Dutch speakers
lived in Britain and British people visited across the Channel and learned
Dutch … considering also that I have never come across this construction in
Middle English.<br>
<br>
Of course, it could simply be that this construction had been used in some
spoken English dialects for some time and that it only began making sporadic
appearances in writing during the transitional (Early Modern) time when English
literature boomed and began showing more diversity. And even then it could be due to Dutch-speaking influence in earlier time, when "Flemish" immigrants flocked to Britain <i>en masse</i>.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
•
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