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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 February 2009 - Volume 01<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Paul Tatum</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:ptatum@blueyonder.co.uk">ptatum@blueyonder.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.03 (01) [E]</span><br>
<br></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: Wesley Parish <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:wes.parish@paradise.net.nz" target="_blank">wes.parish@paradise.net.nz</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> <mailto:</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:wes.parish@paradise.net.nz" target="_blank">wes.parish@paradise.net.nz</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">>></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
FWIW, it is found in some early modern English dialects. Unfortunately
that</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
isn't one of my strong areas, so I can't say exactly which ones - though I</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
remember seeing it in a number of Elizabethan-era poems by Spencer et alii,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
but FWIW, I have used it in a mock-serious way in English:</span></div><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal">
</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
Hi Wesley and all,<br>
In early Modern English this usage seems to have started as a literary
re-analysis of genitive phrases where the possessor was expressed by a word
that end in a sibilant e.g. 'King James' bible' was written 'King James his
bible'. From there, it spread so that you could write 'Queen Elizabeth her
crown'. As far as I'm aware, (i.e. not very far) it was only ever a literary
phenomenon, nobody said 'Queen Elizabeth her crown' when speaking naturally and
the usage quickly disappeared. Expressing the genitive this way with the
possessive pronoun occurs outside the Germanic language family, leafing through
'The concise compendium of the world's languages' by George Campbell, I found
Akan, Navajo and Somali. Turkish uses a mixed construction 'adam.In kaslem.i' =
'of-man his-pencil' = 'the man's pencil' (.In is genitive marker, .i is 3rd
person possessive).<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
</span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(136, 136, 136);" lang="DE">Paul Tatum</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">E Zinsser</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:ezinsser@icon.co.za">ezinsser@icon.co.za</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.03 (03) [A/E]</span><br>
<br>
Hi all, <br>
<br>
I'd also like to mention that possessive forms in Afrikaans do appear
without the 'se' contruction, as for example: <br>
Die sakelys punte onder bespreking (...sakelys se punte..., i.e. E. agenda
items), <br>
Die kar wiele is pap (...kar se wiele...),<br>
<br>
Is this perhaps a slow move towards vernaamwoording? Karwiele,
sakelyspunte, <br>
honde-ore, katspoeg, tafelpoot, etc.<br>
<br>
Groete, <br>
Elsie Zinsser </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <<a href="mailto:roerd096@PLANET.NL">roerd096@PLANET.NL</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.03 (01) [E]<br>
<br>
Right, in colloquial spoken Dutch the construction with "zijn" is<br>
universal.<br>
The friends of our sons, when talking to us, call my wife and me: "Arvid<br>
zijn mamma" or "Imme zijn vader".<br>
Actually, this "zijn" is always pronounced with a schwa, z'n [z@n]
and<br>
often even final n is dropped "ze" [z@]. Just the same as Afrikaans
"se".<br>
We don't have daughters, but when we were kids, my sisters' friends called<br>
our parents "Nadine z'n moeder" or "Saskia z'n vader", so
this z'n (his)<br>
can also be used for women. But adults would say "Saskia d'r auto"<br>
or "Nadine d'r man", where d'r [d@r] is colloquial spoken Dutch for
"haar"<br>
her.<br>
<br>
Groetjes van Imme en Arvid z'n vader (Ingmar)<br>
<br></span></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: Theo Homan <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (05) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> From: Luc Hellinckx <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax"</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
[...]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> Referring to a Norwegian genitive construction you wrote:</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
[...]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> The same construction is not only very common in</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
> Brabantish, [...]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Hi,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I would say, it is rather common in dutch, although you would hardly find</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
it</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
in written dutch, and neither in elevated spoken dutch.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
In grammar school in Amsterdam
I was told that this construction was no</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
dutch.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
[And as the only lower class boy in school there were a lot more</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
constructions they make me change; even 'tram' I had now to pronounce as an</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
english word. Funny people, those higher class people.]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<a href="http://vr.gr/" target="_blank">vr.gr</a>.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Theo Homan</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></div><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:clarkedavid8@aol.com">clarkedavid8@aol.com</a><br>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E<br>
<br>
From: LUCAS ANNEAR <<a href="mailto:annear@wisc.edu">annear@wisc.edu</a>><br>
Subject: Idiomatica<br>
<br>
Dear Lowlanders,<br>
<br>
I have a question regarding a genitive construction. In Norwegian it's<br>
gradually becoming more acceptable to write constructions like:<br>
<br>
- Per sin bil ligger der borte. 'Per his car lies over there.' 'Per's car<br>
is<br>
over there.'<br>
<br>
The construction you refer to is found in 17th century written English:<br>
"Samuel Pepys his diary". I dont know where it came from, when it
started<br>
or<br>
why it disappeared from English. Perhaps a Netherlandish influence from<br>
Dutch/Flemish dyke-builders and court painters? I thought it was a feature<br>
of standard Dutch.<br>
<br>
David Clarke<span style="color: black;"><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
</span>From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Mike Morgan</span></span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:mwmosaka@gmail.com">mwmosaka@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]</span><br>
<br>
The possessive construction found in Low Saxon 'Peter sien Auto',
Afrikaans, 'vader se skoene', Norwegian 'Per sin bil', etc is also the standard
way of expressing attributive possession in Indian Sign Language: WOMAN INDEX-3
3-OWN WOMAN CHILD ' the/that woman's daughter'. (American Sign language also
has this construction, but THERE there is a bit of flexibility in word order as
to which, possessor or possessee comes beofre and after the sign POSSESS).</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
Mike || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="ZH-CN">マイク</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI">माईक</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">|| Мика || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="GU">માઈક</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="GU"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">|| </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">მაიქ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="PA">ਮਾਈਕ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> <br>
</span><span dir="rtl" style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HE">מייק</span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span>
|| </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="TA">மாஇக்</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="TA"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">|| Miqueu || U C > || <span dir="rtl" lang="AR-SA">ما یک</span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span> || Mihangel <br>
================ <br>
Dr Michael W Morgan <br>
Ishara Foundation || </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI">ईशारा</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI">फॉउंडेशन</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">|| </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="ZH-CN">イシャラ基金</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
Mumbai/Bombay *|* </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI">मुंबई</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="HI"> *</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">|*
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="ZH-CN">ムンバイ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">/</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="ZH-CN">ボンベイ</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> (</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="ZH-CN">インド</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">)<br>
<a href="http://www.ishara.org/" target="_blank">www.ishara.org</a><br>
+++++++++++++++<br>
Kësê zïmanê xwë wïndakê, wïndayë. (Kirmanji Proverb: 'Whoever loses his
language is lost.')</span></p>
<p>
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