<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CRon%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C02%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-alt:??¡§??;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
span.hccdpe
{mso-style-name:hccdpe;}
span.ep8xu
{mso-style-name:ep8xu;}
span.ldacoc
{mso-style-name:ldacoc;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="PT-BR">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 February 2009 - Volume 01<br>
===========================================</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span class="ep8xu"><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span><span class="hccdpe"> </span><span class="ldacoc"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="hccdpe">LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.21 (01)
[E]<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: James Wilson <<a href="mailto:jawi2300@gmail.com" target="_blank">jawi2300@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.20 (05) [E]</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br></span></p><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Hi Paul & Heather,</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Sorry Paul but I am going to use Heathers 'GRRRR..'. Any dialect in the UK has been
viewed as lazy, working class, poor English, etc, etc. They have only
ever been studied as dialects of English by anyone outside. The
Northumbrian Language Society (within the area) views it differently.
Also, as a child, I had to leave my dialect/language '...at the school gate';
as it was viewed as something inferior to that which I will be taught, not only
English, but French, German, Latin/Classical Greek! I have never been
bilingual in Northumbrian and English because of the reasons given here.</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
I do not believe that I have ever given the impression that others <i>should </i>learn
Northumbrian. I also fully understand the uselessness of my Northumbrian
Geordie; not only south of the Tees river but also in the rest of the world (I
have lived in Denmark for 22 years)</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
As to the reference of Geordie violence; I have two boys (they are Danish) who
try to imitate my Geordie and I certainly do not beat them for doing so (as my
English master did so often to those young Geordies who dared venture from the
path of righteousness ;)</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Regards</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
James</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Copenhagen</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></div>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>We're actually arguing on the same side here for the most
part; I agree that the attitude against bilingualism was largely imposed
"from above". But that doesn't alter the fact that the various
regional speakers don't switch from standard to regional forms in the way that
Swiss or Austrians do, yet the prejuduce is no longer there; certainly not
rigorously enforced.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">But we're arguing at cross purposes as regards violent
reaction to outsiders speaking the dialect; of course you don't
beat you're children for attempting Geordie, who'd suggest you did!?? How
does that relate to my claim (which I repeat) that if <em><span style="font-family: Arial;">I</span></em> were to make such an attempt, I would
certainly meet with a hostile reception, quite possibly physically? </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Contrast that with the experience of a friend who worked for
several months in Switzerland; he speaks pretty good standard High German,
which the Swiss initially spoke with him, but they were delighted and
encouraging when he bagan to pick up some of the local Allemannic. I
really can't see that happening in Newcastle or
Liverpool, or in Nottingham or Leicester for
that matter. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Until it does, these languages and dialects are not going to
get the status and respect they deserve, and the responsibility for that
attitude lies squarely with the people who do it, you can't blame the Nasty
Masters for everything. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Paul </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Derby</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">England</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject: Language diversity<br>
<br>
Hey, Paul!<br>
<br>
Not to contradict your basic argument, I need to add that the cases of England and Switzerland are fundamentally
different as far as I understand them.<br>
<br>
Switzerland is a hotchpotch
of cantons, cultures and languages that banded together as an alliance against
the emerging kingdoms and empires of Europe
that gobbled up the little guys. There was no cultural and linguistic unity to
begin with, no real vision to create one, and the country more or less worked
with what it had. As far as I understand, language policies have been up to the
cantons, and the federal government in Bern
merely accepts them, though it streamlined them in the form of four official languages on the national level. Standard German had always been perceived as sort of
foreign in Switzerland,
certainly outside the larger cities. People learn it in school, like they learn
Standard French and Standard Italian, and these days English as well. But few
Swiss people speak these standard languages in their private lives. Their
native language varieties are Alemannic, Rhaeto-Romance, Arpitan, Lombard and
Swiss-specific dialects of French and Italian. Swiss Alemannic has always been
valued and treated as a quasi-language. Many even see it as a separate
language. While the education system in the Alemannic-speaking parts uses
predominantly Standard German, it does not send children the message that
Alemannic is inferior, and the curricula allow for use of Alemannic within
certain contexts. When I watch Swiss TV I often hear more Alemannic than
Standard Swiss German; while the moderator speaks SSG, reports and interviews
are largely in Alemannic, and entertainment is often entirely in Alemannic. The
other day I saw a report about a good manners course for the children of some
super-rich Swiss people, school-age children all. It came across as rather
snooty. Yet the instructor spoke Alemannic only!<br>
<br>
This situation cannot be compared with those in other European countries I
believe. There is no significant low prestige problem because the governments
of Switzerland
never labeled Alemannic as inferior; it goes along with the notion that it is
genuinely, home-grown Swiss. Therefore, outsiders' attempts to learn and speak Alemannic (and
I have known several of those) will usually be welcomed and applauded. <br>
<br>
This may be a bit similar to outsiders learning West Frisian in the Northern Netherlands. Frisians of Fryslân have told me
that they expect resident non-Frisians to make attempts to do so. Furthermore,
Frisian rarely had a low prestige problem in the region, and it is an official language in </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Fryslân.</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">
<br>
So it boils down to the matter of prestige. Low prestige is like a cancer. It
takes on a life of its own once it has been planted. Speakers themselves will
come to despise their languages and will stop to teach them to their offspring.
They will become self-conscious about their languages and accents, and
this ends up in situations in which even well-meaning outsiders will be seen as
mocking them when they try to use their languages. By ignoring and labeling a
minority language as non-permissible, as sub-standard, as a sign of social
inferiority and so forth you do plant that cancer. In many cases this began a
long time ago, and it remained untreated. While attitudes in England and
other European countries have become more enlightened lately, the cancer that had
been planted in the past is still there, as are the sensitivities that came
with it. When I mentioned Scots to a visiting young Scotsman some time ago, he said something like, "Oh, you mean the broad slang!"<br>
<br>
This is my take on this.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</span></p>
•
<p>
==============================END===================================
<p>
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org.
<p>
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
<p>
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
<p>
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")
<p>
are to be sent to listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org or at
<p>
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
<p>
*********************************************************************