<div id=":12p" class="ii gt">
<p style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 04 March 2009 - Volume 01<br>
===========================================</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
From: <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:clarkedavid8@aol.com" target="_blank">clarkedavid8@aol.com</a></span></span></span><br>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Etymology" 2009.03.03 (04) [E</span><br>
</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Ron wrote:
What many people do not realize is that Finnic languages used to be spread over
a much larger area than they are nowadays. For instance, what is now Western
Russia, including St. Petersburg,
used to be Finnic-speaking, and t pockets of Finnic language communities still
remain in those areas. </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">There was a
big move of Finnish speakers out of what is now Russia when the eastern Finnish
border moved west after WW2, much as occurred with the Germans in eastern
Europe. Vyborg apparently used to be Finland's
second city, but it is now entirely Russian speaking, I am told.<br>
<br>
David Clarke</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">----------</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:clarkedavid8@aol.com" target="_blank">clarkedavid8@aol.com</a></span></span></span><br>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Etymology" 2009.03.03 (04) [E</span><br>
<br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">There has
been quite a lot in the British press this last week about how cricket was
originally a game played by Flemish weavers, who brought it to England in the
Middle Ages. In fact, there is also evidence of golf and bagpipes (commonly
supposed to be Scottish inventions) in Flemish paintings. I suspect that all
these games and pastimes were present in some form throughout Europe
at one time, but were forgotten and then reintroduced. Surely football
and rugby are English inventions, though (although I once heard of a
Russian who thought that football must be Russian because the Russian word
"futbol" is declined like a normal Russian noun, unlike obviously
foreign imports such as "vino", which is indeclinable)?<br>
<br>
David Clarke<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></span> <<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject: LL-L
"Etymology" 2009.03.02 (01) [D/E]</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From
Heather Rendall <a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> Roger
wrote i.a. in his fascinating exposition on cricket:</span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">1. Krik</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> in Belgian dialects (and in Dutch)
is a jack (as one uses for lifting a car or for supporting the tail of a plane
against tail-tipping)<br>
cf. the French <b>cric<br>
</b><a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cric" target="_blank">http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cric</a>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Bloch in
his dictionnaire étymologique refers to<br>
middle high German: kriek<br>
and middle low German: krich</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="FR">2. Cricket 1855, mot angl.., <strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">peut-être d'origine fr.;</span></strong> on trouve au
xve s. <strong><span style="font-family: Arial;">criquet </span></strong>au sens
de "bâton servant20de but au jeu de boule</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------<br>
<br>
From: "Mari Sarv" <<a href="mailto:mari@haldjas.folklore.ee" target="_blank">mari@haldjas.folklore.ee</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.03.03 (04) [E]<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you are interested, there is a thorough report
from this century: <a href="http://www.mari.ee/eng/scien/topical/Katrin_Saks_Report.html" target="_blank">http://www.mari.ee/eng/scien/topical/Katrin_Saks_Report.html</a></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">and quite a lot of information, including news
on the homepage: <a href="http://www.fennougria.ee/?lang=en" target="_blank">http://www.fennougria.ee/?lang=en</a></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">And for Paul an etymologic list of Estonian
words: <a href="http://www.eki.ee/dict/raun/" target="_blank">http://www.eki.ee/dict/raun/</a>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you’ll search for word „grm“, you will get
all supposedly germanic origin words in this list, „blt“ - baltic, „kasks“ =
keskalamsaksa ’middle saxon’ etc.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Mari Sarv,</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tartu</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">,</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Estonia</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>
<<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.03.03 (03) [E]<br>
<br>
>From Heather Rendall <a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Ron wrote: What many people do not realize is that Finnic
languages used to be spread over a much larger area than they are nowadays. For
instance, what is now Western Russia, including St. Petersburg, used to be Finnic-speaking,
and t pockets of Finnic language communities still remain in those areas. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I picked up a booklet when in Helsinki Museum
about surveys done in the 20th century on existing pockets of Finno-Ugric
languages. The booklet was published in 1990Z</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">The Finno-Permyak Group</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">1. The Baltic Finns</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Finns 5 milllion
speakers</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Estonians 1,100,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Karelians 140,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Vepsians 8,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Votes 30</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Livonians 150</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">2. The Lapps or Samis 40,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">3. The Volgans</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Mordvinians 1,200,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Cheremis or Maris 620,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">4. The Permyaks</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Zyrans or Komis 480,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Votyaks or Udmurts 710,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">The Ugric Group</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">1. Ob-Ugrians</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Ostyaks of Khants 21,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Voguls or Mansis 7,600</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">2. The Hungarians 14,000,000</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Some of the pictures are very revealing: a picture dated
1905 of a teepee is a summer camp of the Voguls on the lower reaches of the
Sosva ( tributary of the Ob?) and a 1900 photo of a village gathering of
Ostyaks and samoyeds could for all the worldhave been taken on a North American
Indian reservation, so similar do they look.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Just one question: Have the Votes survived?</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Heather</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Worcestershire</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">, UK</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
----------</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">>
</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Subject: History</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Thanks, Heather.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Speakers of Votic are currently being estimated as counting less than 20.
However, as an ethnic group, the Votes will probably continue to exist for a
few more generations, albeit Russian speaking, much as it is the case in other
parts of Siberia, and using English, French, Spanish and Portuguese, among the
aboriginal peoples of the Americas. In such cases, songs, dances, folk craft,
rituals and customs tend to be remembered in the ancestral language, at least
for a while.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
In </span>Livonia<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> (within today's </span>Latvia<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">) a
Livonian language revival effort of sorts is currently underway, the language
being used in some popular music as well.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Absent from your list are the Ingrians (a.k.a. Izhorians), the indigenous
ethnicity of Ingermanland (Izhoria) along parts of </span>Russia<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">'s Baltic coast. Speakers of
Ingrian are currently estimated at around 300.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
We can safely assume that a pretty large percentage of Russians of the area
around </span>Lake<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> </span>Ladoga<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
and the Russian coast of the </span>Baltic Sea<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> are of
more or less Finnic stock. Some cultural institutions probably go straight back
to the Finnic past, such as the Russian steam bath (баня </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">banya</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">) which is
obviously connected with the Finnic sauna (Estonian </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">saun</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">, Livonian </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">sōna</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
etc. < Proto-Finnic </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">*savńa</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> originally probably 'pit'; cf. Sami </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">suovdnji</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
'pit dug into snow') which has relatives in sweat lodges throughout Siberia and
throughout North America. We might even hypothesize that Russian phonology has
been partly influenced by Finnic. When you listen to some Finnic varieties, the
Volga-Finnic languages especially (Erzya, Mari, Merya, Meshcherian, Moksha,
Muromian), you are not sure if they are spoken with Russian accents or if
Russian has been influenced by them.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
All of the Balto-Finnic peoples have been having more or less intensive
contacts with speakers of Slavic, Baltic and Germanic. Those that have lost
their ancestral languages and cultures have been gradually absorbed into the
ethnic majority populations, though Finnic substrata undoubtedly survive in the
local dialects of Slavic and Baltic. In addition, parts of these areas used to
be governed by </span>Germany<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">, </span>Denmark<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> and </span>Sweden<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">, apart from long-standing
Hanseatic contacts. So there were sustained contacts with Germanic languages
and cultures. </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
By the way, for some time during the Middle Ages Denmark administered not only
all of the Jutland Peninsula (the southern border being in what is now within
Hamburg) but also much of what is now the state of Mecklenburg – Western
Pomerania as well as some adjacent areas to the east of it. This was a larger
area than that later occupied by </span>Sweden<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
So, cultural and linguistic contacts and stratification abounded along the
southern and eastern shores of the </span>Baltic Sea<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">,
areas previously dominated by speakers of Slavic, Baltic and Finnic. And we
have not even mentioned the massive waves of Germanic eastward expansion from
all over the Western Lowlands, from Britain, from Southern Scandinavia and from
areas farther south in Germany.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Reinhard/Rin</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Seattle<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">, </span>USA</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">---------<br>
<br>
From: <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span></span></span><span> </span><span><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span> <br>
Subject: <span>LL-L "Etymology" 2009.03.03 (04) [E]</span><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Is it just
me, or is anybody else getting these messages repeated dozens of times?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Paul</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
Subject:<span> Etymology<br>
</span><br>
Paul, I for one get everything only once. Maybe there's a temporary stutter in
your case where the list server thinks mail to you is undeliverable, so it
keeps trying.<br>
<br>
Tere, Mari! Milline meeldiv üllatus yhteydenottoasi!</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Thanks for the information. We should also draw people's
attention to the short list of (Low) Saxon loanwords in Estonian witch which
you kindly helped me:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/eesti-info2.php" target="_blank">http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/eesti-info2.php</a><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</span></p>
</div>
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