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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 March 2009 - Volume 06<br>
===========================================</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
From: <span style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Theo Homan</span></span> <<a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com" target="_blank">theohoman@yahoo.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.03.12 (02) [E]<br>
<br>
> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
> Subject: LL-L "Geography" 2009.03.11 (03) [E]<br>
><br>
> Luc wrote:<br>
><br>
> Coming full circle: A couple of days ago, a Spanish<br>
> historian claimed<br>
> Christopher Columbus was actually...a Scotsman...named<br>
> Pedro Scotto<br>
><br>
> That seems entirely feasible. But mariners at that time,<br>
> be they<br>
> explorers, pirates, traders or fishermen (the boundaries<br>
> were fuzzy) were a<br>
> bit of a community in their own right. They had a mobility<br>
> and freedom<br>
> unheard of amongst most mediaeval people, even those at the<br>
> top of the<br>
> social order. "Columbus", whoever
he was,<br>
> certainly visited Bristol in<br>
> England, and quite
probably Iceland.<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
Sorry to spoil the fun.<br>
As far as I could follow the 'Columbus-story':<br>
The Icelanders said: Colombus knew about America.<br>
The only ones to know about America
were the Icelanders.<br>
So Columbus must have been in Iceland.<br>
<br>
Sigh.<br>
<br>
vr. gr.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);">Theo Homan</span><br>
<br>
----------</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">M.-L. Lessing</span></span>
<<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de" target="_blank">marless@gmx.de</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.03.12 (03) [E]<br>
<br>
</span>...and here <a href="http://www.vertelln.de/pdf/ulenspeigel_un_stoertebeker.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.vertelln.de/pdf/ulenspeigel_un_stoertebeker.pdf</a> is
a very good piece of today's low-saxon fiction about Störtebeker. The Platt is
from western Sauerland/Westphalia. The author mixes the stories of two Lowlands' legends. Really worth reading, though hard
stuff for those who are not used to westphalian platt :-)</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">Hartlich!</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;">Marlou</p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span> <<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.03.12 (05)
[E/LS/German]</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>><br>
Subject: History<br>
<br>
Dank di, leve Hanne.<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="NL">Man rejell Middelsassisch
("Middelnedderdüütsch") is dat nich. Daar hett een asig an
rümdoktert, sachs üm dat "düütscher" to maken, un dat de Lüüd' dat
bäter verstaht. Dat is mehrstdeels œverdragen, un 'n paar ole Wöör in nee
Schrievwies' hebbt se binnen laten (or rindaan), dat 't old laten deit. Den
Slag Kneep un Tüünkraam findst faken in "Platt"-Anthologien, de för
"Lüttlüüd'" tohoopsmäten wardt. Af un an hett een sachs ook "nee
up old" dichtert. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="DE">Darüm: nich allens glöven!</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="DE"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">To dit "rümdoktern"
warrt ok "översetten" to seggt. Te Text stammt ja - schrifft Hanne -
ut'n Magdeburger Aesop (1402). </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Un de weer Middelsassisch. De is von de
Anthologie-Makers in modern Platt överdragen worrn. Dat is doch ganz normal.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Marcus Buck</span></span><span style="" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span></span><span style="" lang="NL"> <</span><a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="NL">list@marcusbuck.org</span></a><span style="" lang="NL">></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Subject: LL-L
"History" 2009.03.12 (05) [E/LS/German]</span><span style="" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"> </span><span style="" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>>></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
There were those that for instance sailed only on Hanseatic ships, and the
reach of those was rather limited: the Baltic Sea and a few North
Sea ports – with no destinations that we would consider
"overseas" nowadays.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Just a few? They traded along the Norwegian coast, at the
British coast and the continental coast cities were mostly members. They traded
with the French part of the North Sea coast
too. I don't know about the Danish coast, but the Danish coast lacks any major
cities to trade with. But I'm quite sure that there was at least some trade
with the minor cities.<br>
<br>
To me that's more than a few. They traded with Iceland too. And I read, that the Hanseatic League once was banned from trading with the
Greenlandic settlements. So they at least must have planned to do so. I haven't
read anything about Hanseatic trade with the French, Spanish and Portuguese
Atlantic coast, but from time to time I look up words in the Middle Low German
dictionary and there are often place names from that region mentioned, so they
must have had regular contact with that area.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Marcus Buck</span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Luc Hellinckx</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com" target="_blank">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "History"</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;" lang="NL">Beste Hanne,<br>
<br>
You wrote:</span><span style="" lang="NL"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;" lang="NL"><br>
<b>Das Lied von Störtebeker<br>
</b> <br>
Störtebeker un Gödeke Micheel,<br>
De roveden beiden to gliken Deel<br>
To Water un to Lande,<br>
So lange, dat it Gott van Hemmel verdroot;<br>
Do mosten se liden grote Schande.<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" lang="DE">Störtebeker
sprook: "Alltohand!<br>
De Westsee is uns wollbekannt;<br>
Dahin wölln wi nu faren.<br>
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" lang="NL">De riken
Kooplüd van Hamborg<br>
Mögt jem eer Scheep nu waren."<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;" lang="DE">Nu lepen
se wi dull dahin<br>
In eren bösen Röwersinn,<br>
Bi dat man jem kreeg faten.<br>
Bit Hilgeland in aller Fröh,<br>
Da mussen se 't Haar woll laten.<br>
<br>
De bunte Koh ut Flandern kamm,<br>
Dat Roov=Schipp op de Hören namm<br>
Un stött ett wiß in Stücken.<br>
</span><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Dat Volk se brogg'n na Hamborg up;<br>
Da mussen se 'n Kopp all missen.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><br>
Guy in question here who caught Störtebeker, must be Simon of Utrecht, who was
said to be born in Flanders:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Utrecht" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Utrecht</a><br>
<br>
Could become mascotte of Lowlands: born in Flanders, name “of Utrecht”
and once honorary mayor of Hamburg.
If only he would have wed a Scottish lass <b>;=). <br>
</b>But such were not the manners of seafaring folk I guess.<br>
<br>
Kind greetings,<br>
<br>
Luc Hellinckx</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
<br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: History</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Marcus:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">To dit "rümdoktern" warrt ok "översetten" to
seggt. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="DE">Te Text stammt ja - schrifft Hanne - ut'n
Magdeburger Aesop (1402). </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="NL">Un de weer
Middelsassisch. De is von de Anthologie-Makers in modern Platt överdragen
worrn. </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="DE">Dat is doch ganz normal.</span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">"De roveden ...",
"to Lande", "... mi[t] kühlem Mote" usw. laatt mi nich
besünners "modern".<br>
<br>
Hanne schreev' "Mittelniederdeutsch" daar œver, nich "Aus dem
Mittelniederdeutschen übersetzt". </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL">Dat gifft up de List Minschen,
de den Ünnerscheed nich wäten doot. Daar wägen harr ik dat tobottert. <br>
<br>
Se schreev':</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" lang="DE">Lied von Störtebeker - Magdeburger Aesop</span><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="NL"><br>
Wat de Magdeburger Aesop is, dat wäätt hier nich jedermann. <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">So, fair go and steady
on, mate!</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Apparently the Liekedeelers
did go down to Spain,
Marcus.<br>
<br>
Luc:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 30pt;"><span style="font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">If only
he would have wed a Scottish lass <b>;=). <br>
</b>But such were not the manners of seafaring folk I guess.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">What do you mean were "not the of seafaring folk"?
To marry Scottish lasses?</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">By the way, many have romanticized Störtebeker's life and
have given him a type of Robin Hood status, as reflected in the annual
Störtebeker Plays on the Isle of Rugia (Rügen). And they have quite vilified
poor Simon. His statue in Hamburg
was decapitated in 1985:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><a href="http://tinyurl.com/simonvanutrecht" target="_blank"><span style="" lang="DE">http://tinyurl.com/simonvanutrecht</span></a></span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE"> </span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="DE">Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</span><span style="" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p>
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