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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 March 2009 - Volume 02<br>
===========================================</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span></span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L Language varieties</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Coming back
to literature in Platt I found in Hamburg:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I'm a bit
disappointed for that I find so little original stuff.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">My best
guess for the vocabulary:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">- 80
percent are Hochdeutsch terms pronounced in a Platt way</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">- 15
percent is vocabulary shared with Dutch</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">- the last
5 percent may be original, but includes vocabulary linked to certain persons,
sites or events of a specific area.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">- a - On p 14 in "Renate Herrmann-Winter, <strong>Hör und Lernbuch für das Plattdeutsche"</strong>
(Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) I read:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">"Nein, aber die </span></em><strong><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">Buchstaben</span></i></strong><em><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">, d.h.
eigentlich die Laute, durch die sich diese Wörter unterscheiden, machen den </span></em><strong><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">wichtigsten
Unterschied </span></i></strong><em><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">aus zwischen Hochdeutsch und Plattdeutsch.
Das muss man bloß lernen und dann kann man viel vom Hochdeutschen ganz leicht
ins Plattdeutsche zurückübersetzen</span></em><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">."</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">It gves the
impression that it is all about <strong>pronouncing
things in a different way</strong>.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">(This
sentence may be strategically positioned though in the begining of the book,
for convincing Hochdeutsch speakers that it is not that difficult to learn
Platt)</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">When,
taking the "family" vocabulary list p. 192 only one word sounds
original to me:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Gör,
Jör</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> for child.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Two have a
slightly different semantics in Dutch:</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Diern</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> for girl (<strong>deerne</strong> in Dutch sounds quite
negative)</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Kierl
</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11pt;">for man,
husband (<strong>kerel </strong>in Dutch
sounds quite positive)</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Curious for
the isoglosses on p. 186-187 is that <strong>Rügen</strong>
is apparently quite distinctive from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">- b - For
Hamburg one has to take care I think.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">Quoting from "Daniel Tilger, <strong>Kleines Lexicon Hamburger Begriffe"</strong>
p. 97</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">"</span></em><strong><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">Missingsch </span></i></strong><em><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">war
ursprünglich eine in Hamburg ganz typisch klingende Vermischung von Hochdeutsch
mit Plattdeutsch ...etc"</span></em><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE"></span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DE">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">My
conclusion is that one has to be carefull with classifying books in <strong>Hamburgisch</strong>: They can be in Platt, in
Missingisch (both qualify as "Hamburgisch") or anything between.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">- BTW I
have difficulties with quoting texts in Platt. Some people use
underscores, a-rings and all kind of cedilles.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Regards,</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Roger</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Language varieties<br>
<br>
Roger,<br>
<br>
Your assessment seems pretty accurate to me.<br>
<br>
Publications for general, non-native speaker readerships that are deemed
publishable (i.e. economically feasible) and are sold in general bookstores are
rarely of the "serious" type. They are basically for entertainment,
amusement for German speakers without much prior exposure to the language, many
of whom still believe "Platt" is a German dialect group. The Asterix
books and instructions for swearing are cases in point. They are fundamentally
for people who like to laugh about other dialects and languages.<br>
<br>
Those that produce such publications, if they are even competent to handle the
language, are careful not to make "Platt" (Low Saxon) seem too
foreign, too difficult to understand at first, casual reading by German
speakers. Whenever there are choices of words they will choose the ones closest
to their German equivalent, though changing the spelling/pronunciation a bit to
make it look "Platt". Most of those are German loans.<b><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">*</span></b> Also, they
tend to choose words that are more entertaining, earthy, etc., words whose German
cognates sound unrefined or even rude. This adds to the entertainment value.<br>
<br>
<i>Göör</i> for 'child' and <i>Keerl</i> ~ <i>Kierl</i> for 'man', 'husband'
are cases in point I believe. The normal words are <i>Kind</i> (pl. <i>Kinner</i>)
and <i>Mann</i> (pl. <i>Mannslüüd'</i>) respectively. <i>Göör</i> and <i>Keerl</i>
~ <i>Kierl</i> can easily sound negative, especially <i>Göör</i> which usually
has the sound of 'brat'. (However, used carefully they can also sound
affectionate.) Unless I joke or am annoyed about them, I would not refer to
children as <i>Göörn</i>. I am not aware of <i>Keerl</i> ~ <i>Kierl</i> being
used as 'husband', though some dialects may do so. <i>Keerl</i> ~ <i>Kierl</i>
tends to be used more as 'boyfriend'. If someone said <i>Anna ähr Keerl</i> and
I didn't know anything about Anna I would assume we are talking about her boyfriend
or fiancé, not about her husband, which I would render as <i>Anna ähr Mann</i>.
<br>
<br>
And don't even get me started about orthography …!<br>
<br>
Indeed, <i>Hamburgisch</i> can mean many things, as you have noticed.<br>
<br>
Rather than browsing in bookstores, I recommend the on-line specialty store
Plattschapp (though I don't mean this to be commercial advertising):<br>
<a href="http://www.plattschapp.de/">http://www.plattschapp.de/</a><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA<br>
<br>
__________<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><b><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0);">*</span></b></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> Note: Of course there are many German loans (including calques) in the Low
Saxon dialects of Germany, especially those that have to do with administration,
modern technology and most types of innovations. However, many loans have
replaced native words and names as a part of <i>Sprachverfall</i> (language
decay), primarily due to exclusion of Low Saxon from education and the serious
media. For instance, many nativized names of ethnicities and countries have
come to be replaced in many dialects, such as <i>Jööd'</i> (Jew), <i>Törk</i>
(Turk), <i>Sweden</i> (Sweden) and even <i>de Nedderlannen</i> (the
Netherlands) and <i>Frees'</i> (Frisian) which many people now refer to as <i>Jud'</i>,
<i>Türk</i>, <i>Schweden</i>, <i>de Niederlande</i> and <i>Fries'</i> if you
can believe it.</span></p>
•
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