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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="PT-BR">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 06 April 2009 - Volume 02<br>
===========================================</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="PT-BR"> </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: <span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span></span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span> <br>
Subject: Etymology<br style="">
<br style="">
</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Beste Ron,</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">You wrote:<br style="">
<br style="">
</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;">VEPS</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top: 0in; margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="IT">bard</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="IT"> :
beard<br>
cf. Kar. <i>parta</i>, <i>pardu</i>, Fin. <i>parta</i>; Ltv. <i>bārda</i>;
Germanic *<i>barda(z)</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">flag</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA"> :
flag<br>
cf. Liv. <i>plagā</i>; Middle Saxon <i>vlagge > Flagg</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">habuk</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA"> :
hawk<br>
cf. Kar. <i>haukku</i>, Fin. <i>haukka</i>; Germanic *<i>habuka(z)</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">kana</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">
(kan-) : chicken<br>
cf. Vot., Kar., Fin. <i>kana</i>, Liv. <i>kanā</i>; Germanic *<i>hana</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">kuld</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA"> :
gold<br>
cf. Kar., Fin. <i>kulta</i>, Liv. <i>kuldi</i>; Germanic *<i>gulþa</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">lambaz</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">
(lamb-) : lamb<br>
cf. Liv. <i>lāmbaz</i>, Vot. <i>lammaz</i>, Kar., Fin. Est. <i>lammas</i>,
Est.<i> lamba</i>; Germanic *<i>lamba(z)</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">leib</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA"> ~
<b>liib</b> : bread<br>
cf. Kar., Fin. <i>leipä</i>, Est. <i>leib</i>, Liv. <i>lēba</i>; Germanic
*<i>hlaiba</i> (e.g. English <i>loaf</i>)<i>;</i> Slavonic *<i>xl’eb”</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">pada</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">
(pad-) : pot (?)<br>
cf. Liv. <i>poţa</i>; Ltv. <i>pods</i>; Germanic *<i>putta</i></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">pöud</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA"> :
field<br>
cf. Vot. <i>põlto</i>, Kar. <i>peldo</i>, Fin. <i>pelto</i>; Germanic *<i>felþa</i></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="FR">raud</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="FR"> :
iron (metal) (?)<br>
cf. Kar. Fin. <i>rauta</i>, Vot., Est. <i>raud</i>; Germanic *<i>lauda</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style=""><b style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="FR">runo</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="FR"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> :
poem (?)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
cf. Germanic *</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">runō</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ‘secret’, ‘(secret) counsel’, ‘letter’</span></span></li></ul>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="FR"> <br><b>VOTIC</b></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top: 0in; margin-left: 40px;" type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;">frovva</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> : lady; Mrs.<br>
cf. Fin. <i>rouva, Est. proua</i>; Germanic *<i>frōwo</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">kana</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA"> :
hen<br>
cf. Vot., Kar., Fin. <i>kana</i>, Liv. <i>kanā</i>; Germanic *<i>hana</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA">kattila</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="DA"> :
kettle<br>
cf. Fin. <i>kattila</i>, Est. <i>katel</i>, Liv. <i>kaţļā</i>; Ltv. <i>katls</i>;
Germanic *<i>katila(z)</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;">lammaz</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> : sheep<br>
cf. Liv. <i>lāmbaz</i>, Vep. <i>lambaz</i>, Kar., Fin. Est. <i>lammas</i>,
Est.<i> lamba</i>; Germanic *<i>lamba(z)</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;">lusti</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> : pretty; fine (?)<br>
cf. Low Saxon <i>lustig</i> ‘funny’, ‘enjoyable’</span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;">merkki</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> : mark; sign; signal<br>
cf.; Germanic *<i>marka</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;">põlto</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> : field <br>
cf. Vep. <i>pöud</i>, Kar. <i>peldo</i>, Fin. <i>pelto</i>; Germanic *<i>felþa</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;">püsü</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> : gun<br>
cf. Fin. <i>pyssy</i>, Est. <i>püss</i>; cf. Saxon <i>büks</i> > <i>büss</i>
(rel. to “box”)</span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="FR">rauta</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="FR"> :
iron (?)<br>
cf. Kar. Fin. <i>rauta</i>, Vep., Est. <i>raud</i>; Germanic *<i>lauda</i></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style=""><b style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="FR">tupa</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="FR"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> :
chamber (?)</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
cf. Liv. </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">tubā</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">, Low Saxon </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Stuve</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ~ </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Stube > Stuuv’</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">,
Eng. </span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">stove</i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">; Germanic *</span><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">stubō</i></span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>My first
idea was that these loans might as well have gone back to Viking invasions
(runo, for example), but "frovva" proves this wrong I guess. The
"leib/liib" word for "bread" could also be attributed to
Russian, but on the whole I tend to think you're right assuming that Germanic
(Saxon?) influence is very likely. The loans do not all have the same age,
otherwise I guess "habuk" and "kana" would both have
started with the same consonant. Which then either means that exposure to
Germanic may have extended over a considerable period of time; or the role of
Finnic as some sort of transit language may have altered.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Kind
greetings,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Luc
Hellinckx</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">----------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">From: R. F.
Hahn <</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;" lang="IT"><a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none;" lang="EN-US">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">> <br>
Subject: Etymology<br>
<br>
Dear Luc,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the response.<br>
<br>
Quite so. The loans are clearly from different ages and different sources. Furthermore,
I expect that many of the Germanic loans have been passed along among the Balto-Finnic
languages and some Saxon words entered the languages as Latvian or Scandinavian
loans.<br>
<br>
Going by migration strata, Slavonic loans would apparently have arrived after the
earliest strata of Germanic loans, and the *<i>hlaiba</i> group has been said to belong
to that. <br>
<br>
You need to bear in mind that Balto-Finnic people have been living in those areas
for a long, long time. There are still many problems with Uralic classification
in connection with other aspects of history, especially with hypotheses regarding
migration. In my opinion it is simplistic to assume that all Uralic peoples now
west of the Urals migrated there. While this appears to be the case with the Magyars
(Hungarians), the Finno-Saamic situation appears to be more complex. I personally
believe that there used to be a continuum with the Saamic people at one time in
most of what we now call the Nordic Countries, prior to Germanic northward
expansion and Finnic westward and northward expansion, with extensive absorption
of Saami people by these communities of newcomers. (Tacitus mentions the <i>fenni</i>,
which may have been Saami or a variety of Finno-Saamic people.)<br>
<br>
At any rate, this would have put Finnic-speaking people into direct contacts with
various early Germanic peoples. This seems to have included East Germanic communities
(most likely Goths) prior to the spread and consolidation of Eastern and Western Slavs. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">In general, the first loan words into Finno-Ugric languages
seem to come from very early Indo-European languages, and later mainly from Iranian,
Turkic, Baltic, Germanic, and Slavic languages. Furthermore, a certain group of
very basic and neutral words exists in Finnish and other Finnic languages that
are absent from other Finno-Ugric languages, but without a recognizable
etymology from any known language. These words are usually regarded as the last
remnant of the Nordic language spoken in Fennoscandia before the arrival of the
proto-Finnic language. Words included in this group are e.g. <i>jänis</i>
(hare), <i>musta</i> (black), <i>mäki</i> (hill), <i>saari</i> (island), <i>suo</i>
(swamp) and <i>niemi</i> (cape). Also some place names, like Päijänne
and Imatra, are
probably before the proto-Finnic era. <br><br></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 40px;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Often quoted loan examples are <i>kuningas</i>
"king" and <i>ruhtinas</i> "prince, high ranking nobleman"
from Germanic <i>*kuningaz</i> and <i>*druhtinaz</i>, but another example is <i>äiti</i>
"mother", from Gothic <i>eiþai</i>, which is interesting because
borrowing of close-kinship vocabulary is a rare phenomenon. The original
Finnish <i>emo</i> has become a cranberry morpheme. There are other
close-kinship words that are loaned from Baltic and Germanic languages (<i>morsian</i>
"bride", <i>armas</i> "dear"). Examples of the ancient
Iranian loans are <i>vasara</i> "hammer" from Avestan <i>vadžra</i>,
<i>vajra</i> and <i>orja</i> "slave" from <i><a title="Aryan">arya</a></i>, <i>airya</i>
"man" (the latter probably via similar circumstances as <i>slave</i>
from Slav in many European languages).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;" align="right"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><font size="1"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language</a></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
This makes contacts with Middle Saxon during the Hanseatic era relatively recent
events.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
Seattle, USA</span></p>
<p>
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