<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crhahn%5CLocal%20Settings%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C02%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-alt:宋体;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;
mso-font-charset:134;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:3 135135232 16 0 262145 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:SimSun;}
<a href="<a href="http://span.gi">http://span.gi</a>"><a href="http://span.gi">span.gi</a></a>
{mso-style-name:gi;}
<a href="<a href="http://span.gd">http://span.gd</a>"><a href="http://span.gd">span.gd</a></a>
{mso-style-name:gd;}
span.go
{mso-style-name:go;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" align="center"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">===========================================<br>
L O W L A N D S - L - 07 April 2009 - Volume 10<br>
===========================================</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
From:<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"> <a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></span></span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Etymology" 2009.04.07 (01) [E]</span><br>
<br>
from Heather Rendall <a href="mailto:heatherendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">re replies to celtic origins of Lancastrian dialect(s)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Oh dear ! I suppose I ought to be able to reply in Welsh but
it is now 28 years since I left Wales and I only ever managed to get to a level
that allowed me to read a child's book suitable for 8/9 yr olds. I did once
listen to a whole programme on TV thinking I had made the essential
breakthrough as I could follow it all.... only to find at the end that it had
been made in Brittany by Bretons speaking Welsh! </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I wasn't claiming any definite origins ..... but Davies'
book first published in the late 19th century contains many 'dialect' words
that are recognisable as (now) mainstream English. What I find interesting is
many many of these when checked in the OED have 'origin unknown'. My contention
is that the Celtic languages have had a much greater impact on English
vocabulary than they are usually given credit for and that a sound knowledge of
Welsh and Irish would serve the OED researchers well.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">examples from Davies</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">bicker = to quarrel peevishly Welsh bicra/
bicre =to fight, skirmish OED origin unknown</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">codger = an artful person Welsh coegiwr = a deceiver,
cheat  OED perhaps variant of cadger: OED cadger - origin unknown</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">gammy = crooked, lame Welsh cam = crookedÂ
OED dialect variant of game OED game of unknown origin perhaps F gambi =
bent , crooked</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">muffin = a kind of light tea cake/ sort of
crumpet  Welsh mef = soft, smooth, puffed mwythan = any soft tender
substance OED of unknown origin </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">mug = low word for the face (ugly mug)Â Irish muig /
mugi = a surly countenance </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Gaelic (s)muig a snout, a ludicrous name for a
face  Sanskrit mukha = mouth or face OED perhaps
transfer from a drinking mug being frequently made to representa grotesque face
(!)</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">......... and I could quote many more</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">The influence or remnants of Celtic British on Anglo-Saxon
is usually restricted to geographic elements " It left only a few traces
in English" Melvyn Bragg in "The Adventures of
English"</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">"Why then are there so few Celtic loan words in Old English?...
apart from the placenames referrred to on p25, the influence is indeed
small"Â David Crystal in "The Stories of English" and then
mentions the following</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">bannock: brock: crag: wan: dun: carr: loch: clucge = bell
> glocke / clock</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">and says that perhaps there are another 20 only!</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">But Davies lists pages of what he termed dialect words of
1890 - many of which have become modern parlance since he wrote his book.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I just think it may be worthwhile considering that in some
cases he may be right - that the origins were either from the Irish or Welsh. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">What is debatable is at what period they entered the
language; are they remnants that have always been there? Did they come in post
1066? Did they come in during Tudor expansion? Or the industrial revolution? Or
even later?</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Â </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Heather</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
----------<br>
<br>
From:<span class="gd"><span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"> </span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcel Bas</span></span></span><span class="gi"> </span><span class="go"><<a href="mailto:marcelbas@gmail.com">marcelbas@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gi">LL-L "Etymology" 2009.04.07 (06) [A/E]</span><br>
<br>
Dag Petrus!<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" lang="NL">Dank je voor je vraag.<br>
<br>
Het soort r-metathesen dat jij oppert komt inderdaad veel voor in de<br>
Germaanse talen (vgl. 'breed' vs. 'bird' in het Engels), maar een<br>
s-mobile waarbij _surt_ ook _srut_ en _rut_ kon worden is<br>
onwaarschijnlijk. Sr- zou onherroepelijk een epenthese tot str- tot<br>
gevolg hebben gehad, en zou enkel zo in de Germaanse talen zijn<br>
binnengekomen.<br>
<br>
Maar verder zie je dat ook semantisch gezien de eenheid tussen<br>
zwart-surt(r)-sordidus aannemelijker is, zoals ook Ron zegt.<br>
<br>
Bij mijn weten is het Engelse 'to read' inderdaad in het licht van het<br>
lezen van de runentekens te zien, maar is het niet verwant aan 'rood',<br>
maar juist aan 'raden'. Je zou ervan kunnen uitgaan dat de<br>
geestelijken over ingewijde kennis beschikten (alleen zij lazen) die<br>
op de eenvoudigere mensen een raadselachtige indruk maakte.<br>
<br>
Al deze woordveranderingen zijn overigens eenvoudig terug te voeren op<br>
vrijwel uitzonderingsloze klankwetten. Zie maar, als je een goed<br>
etymologisch woordenboek ter hand neemt.<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Groetjes,<br>
<br>
Marcel.</span></p>
•
<p>
==============================END===================================
<p>
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org.
<p>
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
<p>
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
<p>
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")
<p>
are to be sent to listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org or at
<p>
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
<p>
*********************************************************************