<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 15 April 2009 - Volume 10<br>===========================================<br></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Hellinckx Luc</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Idiomatica"<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Beste Lucas,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
You wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I've been pondering the last few days to what extent 'stock' and
'stone' (in any Germanic or non-Germanic languages) are often paired
together to create a phrase.  It started as a discussion of how
Tolkien has Treebeard say, in the Return of the King, chapter Many
Partings:  "It is long, long since we met by stock or by stone."  In
this case I think the pair carries the meaning "anywhere" as well as
overtones of duration.  Many believe that this is echoing a line in
the Middle English poem "Pearl": "We meten so selden by stok other
ston"  In Norwegian "over stokk og stein" apparently means "out of
control".  I'm wondering then to what extent 'stock' in the Germanic
languages (perhaps especially in W.Gmc) is an archaic word and how
often it appears in phrases, particularly with 'stone'.<br>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"Stock and stone" can be viewed as "stick and stone" in modern English.
In Old English, "stock" is another word for "tree trunk, log" and in
modern Dutch/German, "sto(c)k" can still mean "stick".</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
To a minor degree, the expression exists in Dutch, but it's much more popular in German. Grimm gives this explanation:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in besonderer beliebtheit die verbindung s t o c k  u n d  s t e i n
als ausdruck der noch nicht gerodeten (wald)landschaft: die kaufbriefe
über die sieden ... fertigte man daher mit den gewöhnlichen formeln
aus: mit wald und bach, stock und stein, grund und boden, das obrist
zum nidrigsten, sie liegen in des herzogen lande<br>
</blockquote>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Originally "stick and stone" (E), "stok en steen" (D), "stock und
stein" (G), Â was the name for any untrodden area in a forest (covered
with sticks and stones). So when one had gone "über stock und stein" in
order to meet someone, it meant he/she had made a serious (unlimited)
effort to find that person. In Dutch it would be more common to say
"door berg en dal", "over hill and dale" (E).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Kind greetings,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Luc Hellinckx<br>
</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
PS: An alternative: In the past sticks were used to show the border of
a community whereas stones served the same purpose for the frontier of
a country. In that view, crossing sticks and stones, meant "to go a
long way" in order to achieve something. I have my doubts here, because
I always thought that major boundaries were mostly (always?) made of
stone.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Martha-Luise Lessing</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.04.15 (08) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hello Lucas,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
in High German the term "über Stock und Stein" (= over stick (!) and
stone) means to cross the country off road. It is often used with
running or riding. I always thought "Er reitet über Stock und Stein"
means that the horseman rides through woods (Stock!) and rocky
wilderness. But the meaning "out of control" that you allude to would
also make sense insome contexts.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Hartlich</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Marlou</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
(Hamburg/Holstein)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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