<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 12 May 2009 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a></span><br>===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Pat Reynolds</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:pat@caerlas.demon.co.uk">pat@caerlas.demon.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Terminology" 2009.05.11 (06) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">Lowlands-L List (i.e. Rienhard/Ron wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
What thinking, if any, is behind the distinctive label "indigenous" within a European context?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I wonder if it is used to mean 'roughly comparable in lifestyle to such
Indigenous peoples as are recognised (or sterotyped) in Australasia and
North America'?</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In other words: a marginalised nomadic, semi-nomadic, or recently
nomadic group of people, with a distinctive language and material
culture that has been determined to be (except at great time-distance)
unrelated to that of the mainstream/majority culture in origin.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Oddly, using this definition, Gypsies become 'indigenous' to the UK.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Best wishes,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Pat</span><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Pat Reynolds<br>
<br>
It may look messy now ...<br>
    ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Terminology" 2009.05.11 (06) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div class="im"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="2"><em>> From: R. F. Hahn <</em></font><a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US"><font size="2"><em>sassisch@yahoo.com</em></font></span></a><font size="2"><em>>
</em></font></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></div><font size="2"><em><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">>
Subject: </span>Terminology<div class="im"><br>> What thinking, if any, is behind
the distinctive label "<strong>indigenous"</strong> within a European
context?</div></em><br></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Ik doe dit in het Nederlands omdat ik citeer uit een juridisch
boek en ik mij niet aan juridische vertalingen waag.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Wat volgt probeert een definitie te vinden in het
<strong>Kaderverdrag.</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaderverdrag_inzake_de_bescherming_van_nationale_minderheden" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaderverdrag_inzake_de_bescherming_van_nationale_minderheden</a><br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_National_Minorities" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_National_Minorities</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Het <strong>Kaderverdrag</strong> is sterk verschillend van
<strong>BUPO</strong> en <strong>EVRM</strong> omdat het geen rechtsteekse
werking heeft. Individueën kunnen het niet zelf afdwingen. De Staten krijgen wel
<strong>aanbevelingen</strong>, en die hebben moreel gezag.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Vandaar dan ook de schrik in Vlaanderen vooral gericht is op
wat onze nationale rechtbanken ermee doen als we het ratificeren, minder wat er
internationaal kan gebeuren.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Ter info: de twee andere, geratificeerde verdragen, die wel
individueel afdwingbaar zijn:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Wikipedia <strong>BUPO</strong>Â <a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/BUPO" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/BUPO</a><br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Wikipedia <strong>EVRM</strong>Â <a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVRM" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVRM</a><br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Ik citeer uit Jan Velaers, <strong>Het Kaderverdrag tot
bescherming van de nationale minderheden, een "non possumus' voor
Vlaanderen?,</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">p. 103-158Â (with many foothnotes in small print)
in:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><strong>Taaleisen juridisch getoetst</strong>, editors A. Alen
& S. Sottiaux, </font><font size="2">2009, Kluwer, ISBN 978-90-4652-685-8,
xiii + 190 pp.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">(proceedings - in Dutch -Â of the conference "Taalkeisen,
wat kan, wat kan niet?", Leuven May 8, 2009.)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">[Ik laat de voetnoten weg]</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">p. 106</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">.. Het begrip "<strong>nationale minderheid'</strong> wordt in
het Kaderverdrag niet gedefinieerd, zodat de staten ... over een
appreciatiemarge beschikken.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">p. 108</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">... In aanbeveling 1201 (1993) heeft de Parlementaire
Vergadering van de Raad van Europa wel een poging ondernomen om een definitie te
geven. Ze luidt als volgt:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><em>"... the expression "<strong>national minority</strong>"
refers to a group of persons in a state who:</em></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><em>(a) reside on the territory of that state and are citizens
thereof;</em></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><em>(b) maintain longstanding, firm and lasting ties with that
state;</em></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><em>(c) display distinctive ethnic, cultural, religious or
linguistic characteristics;</em></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><em>(d) are sufficiently representative, although smaller in
number than the rest of the population of that state or of a region of that
state;</em></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><em>(e) are motivated by a concern to preserve together that
which constitutes their common identity, including their culture, their
traditions, their religion or their language"</em></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Deze definitie heeft evenwel geen juridisch bindende waarde,
aangezien aanbeveling 1201 (1993) op de Top van Wenen van de Raad voor Europa
werd verworpen. Ook door het Raadgevend Comité wordt ze niet gehanteerd. Men kan
trouwens vaststellen dat sinds enige tijd de pogingen worden gestaakt om het
begrip "<strong>minderheid"</strong> te definiëren en dat overigens ook het
Europees Hof voor de Rechten van de Mens aangeeft dat het vinden van een
definitie uiterst moeilijk is en dat de praktijk inzake erkenning van
minderheden sterk verschilt van staat tot staat.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Practically the "Raadgevend Comité" tries in its reports to
extend the scope states give in their declaration when signing the
treaty:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">p. 110</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Het Raadgevent Comité aarzelt niet om voortdurend zelf andere
groepen dan deze die de staten uitdrukkelijk in hun verklaring aangeven of die
ze in hun rapport hebben vermeld, als "nationale minderheden" voor te
stellen...</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">p. 114</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Vaak - soms ook als een anternative vereiste voor
nationaliteit - worden minstens "langdurige, duurzame banden" vereist met de
Staat waar de minderheid haar rechten wil laten gelden. Vaak wordt daarbij een
<strong>duur van 100 jaar of drie generaties</strong> vooropgesteld. Ook hier
zet het Raadgevens Comité de staten ertoe aan om zich flexibel op te stellen en
geen al te strenge eisen te stellen...</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Zo beval het bv. Duitsland aan om zowel het criterium
"nationaliteit', als het criterium "traditione vestiging" te relativeren en
ermee rekening te houden dat bv. Turken en andere groepen van personen met een
buitenlandse achtergrond verschillende tientallen jaren in Duitsland verblijven
en zeker wat een aantal rechten betreft, binnen de beschermingssfeer van het
kaderverdrag kunnen wordengebracht... <em>[voetnota 57Â Second Opinion on
Germany, 1 March 2006...]</em></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Het Raadgevend Comité verwerpt trouwens het concept van
"<strong>autochtone minderheid</strong>" ...</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">p. 116</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">... heeft het Raadgevend Comit" ook reeds herhaaldelijk
gesteld dat de nationale minderheden niet alleen beschermd zijn in het gebied
waarin ze traditioneel zijn gevestigd, maar ook elders in de staat.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">... Duitssprekende minderheid die traditioneel in
Zuid-Jutland is gevestigd, doch waarvan de leden ook elders in Denemarken
aanspraak kunnen maken op minderheidsbescherming.. <em> [voetnota 71
...Second opinion on Denmark, 11 May 2005..]</em></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">I hope this contributes to the issue of
"terminology".</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Regards,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Roger<br><br>----------<br></font><br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a>> </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Subject: </span>Terminology<br><br>Thanks, Pat and Roger.<br><br>I still think that in the case of Europe "indigenous" seems to be a somewhat arbitrarily applied label. This seems to come through a bit in the Wikipedia introduction:<br>
<br><div style="margin-left: 40px;">Since most of Europe in historical times was never colonized by non-European powers with lasting effect (arguably except for Hungary, Turkish Thrace, Tatarstan, Kalmykia and islands such as Malta or Cyprus), <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 51);">the vast majority of Europeans can be considered "indigenous"</span>. However several widely accepted formulations, which define the term "Indigenous peoples" in stricter terms, have been put forward by important internationally recognized organizations, such as the United Nations, the International Labour Organization and the World Bank. Indigenous peoples in this article is used in such a narrower sense.<br>
<br>In Europe, present-day recognized Indigenous populations are relatively few, mainly confined to northern and far-eastern reaches of this Eurasian peninsula. Whilst there are various ethnic minorities distributed within European countries, few of these still maintain traditional subsistence cultures and are recognized as indigenous peoples, per se. Notable indigenous populations include the Sami people of northern Scandinavia, the Nenets and other Samoyedic peoples of the northern Russian Federation, and the Komi peoples of the western Urals.<br>
<br>The Basque people, inhabiting northern Spain and southwestern France, are one of the oldest indigenous ethnic groups in Europe. The main theory about Basque origins suggests that they are a remnant of Paleolithic Europeans inhabiting continuously the Franco-Cantabrian region since at least Magdalenian times, and maybe as early as the original colonization of Europe by Homo sapiens. The only archaeological evidence for an invasion of the Basque Country dates to some 40,000 years ago when Cro-Magnon people first arrived in Europe and superseded Homo neanderthalensis.[19]<br>
<br>Caucasus is unique in its ethnic diversity, with a greater variety of languages spoken there than in any region of similar size in the world. Caucasus region is the home of over 50 indigenous ethnic groups.<br><br>[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples</a>]<br>
</div><br>In the rest of the world there are cases where certain minority ethnicities that "stick out" are <u>assumed</u> to be "indigenous", i.e. to be the earliest inhabitants, even though immigration of the now majority populations is so far not a proved fact (though DNA evidence may eventually prove it). A case in point is the various "Negrito" peoples of the Philippines, Thailand and Malaysia (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negritos">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negritos</a>). There are indications that the Malayic and Taiic majority peoples of the region descended from immigrants that arrived from what is now Southern China. But we are talking about a very long timeline here, ancient colonization, if this is what it was.<br>
<br>So it seems to me that in many cases social aspects play a role in determining who is "indigenous" and who is not, and that in many cases it is applied as a euphemism for the now politically incorrect term "primitive".<br>
<font size="2"><br></font></div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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