<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 27 May 2009 - Volume 05<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a></span><br>===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
The expression "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is not uncommon here, but it's accepted as an Americanism.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Derby</div>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">England</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mike Morgan</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mwmosaka@gmail.com">mwmosaka@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (02) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im"><div>Heather wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> But Simple Pasts cannot be used like this: so you can't say </div>
</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> ... the half-ate hamburger<br></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Well, actually, depends on who "you" is I guess. If you type "half
ate sandwich", for example, into google search, you will come up with
more than a few examples of people using it ... unconsciously and
unconsientiously...</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">And, I would guess, if one could sing about a "driunken sailor"
100 years ago (or whenever), you can imagine that SOME of his
great-grandchildrwen are probably talking about him still to this day.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">As a user and lover of grammars, too many are the times I have
read one day "you can't say X" or "*X", only to read/hear/see a native
speaker/signer use exactly that expression somewhere within the next
week ...</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">When I get in the room as a language TEACHER, i don't know if that
makes me a better teacher or a worse one, but it DOES make me a popular
one, 'cause I almost NEVER tell the students, "Nope, you are WRONG" ...
but, when i cock my head in the certain way, and look pensive for a
moment, and say/sign "You know, *I* wouldn't say it that way but maybe
...' ... well the students get the message anyway.</div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">mike || U C > || мика || माईक || マイク || ሚካኤል</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++</span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
+++++<br> (( Michael W Morgan, PhD ))<br> to be Assistant Professor in Linguistics<br>Ethiopian Sign Language & Deaf Studies Program<br>
Addis Ababa University (Ethiopia)<br>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<br>וואָס לענגער אַ בלינדער לעבט, אַלץ מער זעט ער.<br>The longer a blind man lives, the more he sees.<br><br>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mike Morgan</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mwmosaka@gmail.com">mwmosaka@gmail.com</a>></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (02) [EN]<br><br></span><div>In Heather's (partial) defense, if you stick with HER "hamburger"
rather than MY "sandwich", there was only ONE "half ate hamburger" that
came up in response to a google search ... (sandwich came up with
80-odd, though granted soem MIGHt be repeats)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>... </div>
<div> </div>
<div>And from the Telegraph (Kolkota / Calcutta) 17 January 2009 we have THIS (boldface added):</div>
<div>
<p align="left">Banta came home <strong>drunken</strong> and asked his son, Ghanta, about his examinations.</p>
<p align="left">Ghanta: “Papa, I’ll have to stay in this class for one more year.”</p>
<p align="left">Banta: “<i>Koi baat nahin, saal lagey ya teen saal, magar fail mat hona (</i>You may spend two years or three in this class, but don’t fail).</p></div>----------<br><br>From: <span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(204, 0, 96);">jmtait</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk">jmtait@wirhoose.co.uk</a>></span></span><br>
Subject: <span class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]</span><br><span class="gI"><br></span><blockquote type="cite">Ron wrote:<br><br>
So it seems to me that the "extended" forms (with -en) at least
<i>used to</i> be used only to precede and thus modify nouns.<br><br>
And ...<br><br>
*The floor in the middle of the room is <u>sunk</u>. (?)<br>
The floor in the middle of the room is <u>sunken</u>. <br>
The floor in the middle of the room has <u>sunk</u>. (verb)<br>
*The floor in the middle of the room has <u>sunken</u>. (verb) (?)<br>
*The room has a <u>sunk</u> floor.<br>
The room has a <u>sunken</u> floor.<br><br>
Any comments?</blockquote><br>Are you saying that the -en forms originated as adjectives? Or that they
are older forms of the past participle which have nevertheless retained
their use as adjectives, even though they have fallen out of use as past
participles?<br><br>
So that we have various stages in this process:<br><br>
In broke/broken we have a past participle (broken) which is used both as
past participle and adjective in the standard language, though it may
have fallen out of use in some dialects.<br><br>
In sunk/sunken, we have a past participle (sunken) which is no longer
used as a past participle, but survives as an adjective.<br><br>
In drunk/drunken, we have a past participle (drunken) which is no longer
used either as past participle or adjective, and thus only survives in
older songs, etc.<br><br>
In Shetland, both 'sunken' and 'drunken' are still used (at least by
linguistic dinosaurs such as myself) in their original senses, as past
participles. I would say 'Da floor i da middle o da room is sunken [sVkN]
doon' and 'He's drucken [drVkN] ower muckle.' (In both those cases,
the auxiliary verb used to form the perfect is 'be' rather than 'have').
Also as an adjective: 'He's a drucken fuil' and 'he's braaly drucken.' In
these cases, 'drucken' doesn't mean 'drunk' exactly, it means 'Given to
becoming drunk.' Somebody could be described as 'drucken' even if they
were sober at the time. 'Drunk' would still be used with the standard
English sense (although this may be a recent expression from the standard
language. The native Shetland is more likely to be 'foo' as in 'foo o
drink.)<br><br>
In these cases, the 'It's broke' type of construction would come from
dialects less conservative in this area (cp: 'whodunnit', 'I seen it',
etc) whereas the Shetland example illustrates a dialect more conservative
than standard English.<br><br>
The difference between some past participles of weak verbs and adjectives
in Shetland may be related to this, although I'm not sure exactly how. In
Shetland, as in Scots, past participles in '-it' occur only after
'p,t,k,b,d,g' sounds. But you still get adjectives such as 'waenglit'
meaning wobbly, where the verb is 'waengle, pt. waengled, pptc.
waengled', and 'slesterit' (messy), where the verb is 'slester, pt.
slestered, pptc. slestered. I suspect there is some analogy to this in
the Scots adjective form 'fremmit' (foreign) which is 'fremd' in Shetland
and elsewhere.<br><br>
John M. Tait.<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">sassisch@yahoo.com</span></a>> </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Grammar<br><br>Thanks for the clarification, John.<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Are you saying that the -en forms originated as adjectives? Or that they
are older forms of the past participle which have nevertheless retained
their use as adjectives, even though they have fallen out of use as past
participles?<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I was timidly trying to imply the latter.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In
these cases, 'drucken' doesn't mean 'drunk' exactly, it means 'Given to
becoming drunk.' Somebody could be described as 'drucken' even if they
were sober at the time. 'Drunk' would still be used with the standard
English sense (although this may be a recent expression from the standard
language. The native Shetland is more likely to be 'foo' as in 'foo o
drink.)<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I suppose that's the equivalent of saying that someone "is a drunk" in American English. It refers to someone given to drinking, an alcoholic thus.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I suspect there is some analogy to this in
the Scots adjective form 'fremmit' (foreign) which is 'fremd' in Shetland
and elsewhere.<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">It's (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">fremidi</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">frem(e)de</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> >) </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">fremd</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in German, </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">vreemd</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in Dutch, and (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">fremithi</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">vremede</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ~ </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">vromede</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> >) </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">frömd</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> in Low Saxon. The Scots forms must be derived from Old English </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">fremþe</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> or from its specific Old Northumbrian equivalent, if different. They come from </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">fram</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 'forward', 'away' which comes from Indo-European *</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">promo</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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