<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 27 May 2009 - Volume 02<br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a></span><br>===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Brooks, Mark</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size: 14pt;">Ron
asked about:</span></p>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">The guy is <u>broke</u>.</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
*The <u>broke</u> guy (?) This doesn’t sound incorrect to me.</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
(*)The air conditioner is <u>broke</u>. Neither this one.</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><div class="im">
The air conditioner is <u>broken</u>.</div></span><span></span><br><span>
*The <u>broke</u> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">air conditioner (?) Ok</span><span></span><br><span>
The <u>broken</u> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">air conditioner</span><br><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><div class="im">
Similarly:</div></span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><div class="im">
The sailor is <u>drunk</u>.<br></div></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><div class="im">
*The sailor is <u>drunken</u>. (?)</div></span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
*What shall we do with the <u>drunk</u> sailor? (?) Ok.</span><br><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><div class="im">
What shall we do with the <u>drunken</u> sailor?<br></div></span></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">I
admit that I wouldn’t expect to hear “The broke air conditioner” from someone
minding his Ps and Qs, but it sounds okay to me (as well as the other
examples), and I might even use them myself when trying to sound “down home”
with family and such.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">Mark
Brooks</span></p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net">Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Re broke/broken, sunk/sunken etc.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Ron, You know I am not a linguist, but an interested
bystander at best….. But, look at the verbs from which these “Adjective Pairs”
are derived. They are all strong and I assume that English has inherited them
at a time when the Past Participles of these verbs were still ending in -en. The
Adjectives were made from their respective Past Participles and ended in -en
too. Then when English decided to do away with the –en at the end of the verbs
some people may have thought that the adjectives should be altered too. I have
read “ope” somewhere which was supposed to mean open too, but to open is not a
strong verb. So I shoot myself in the foot again.</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The question then also becomes if Brokeback Mountain, means
that that particular mountain was eroded and had lost some of its ridges.
Groetjes, </span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jacqueline</span></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Seattle WA</span></p><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);"><a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From Heather Rendall</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" target="_blank">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron gave this an example</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">The sailor is <u>drunk</u>.<br>*The sailor is <u>drunken</u>. (?)<br>*What shall we do with the <u>drunk</u> sailor? (?)<br>What shall we do with the <u>drunken</u> sailor? </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I think the old sea shanty " What shall we do
with the drunken sailor.. early in the morning" is playing a part here.
Because without its influence we wouldn't even be considering 'drunken'
as being in current use.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">You wouldn't say " The drunken man staggered into the road" instead " The
drunk man staggered into the road" or even just " The drunk staggered
into the road" where it is understood that a man is meant (!). </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Which leaves us being able to say "What shall we do with the drunk sailor?" as opposed to the sober one.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Any ( most?) past participle can be used as an adjective</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"a half-eaten hamburger"</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">" the burnt toast"</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">" the written word"</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> But Simple Pasts cannot be used like this: so you can't say </p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">the wrote word / the half-ate hamburger</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">With broke and broken - I think dialect use of broke is at play this time.</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"If it ain't broke, don't mend it" where clearly
in RP English a past participle would be required instead " If it isn't
broken ...etc"</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">according to OED..... The original Simple Past
was 'brake' and became 'broke' through the influence of the Past
participle 'broken'</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">"broke" meaning out of money is 1st attested in
the 18th and the OED has it as a variant of 'broken' i.e. treats it as
a 2nd version of the past participle...... which would make " If it
ain't broke, ....." perfectly acceptable historically!!!</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">But in our grammatical mind I am sure we treat it
as NOT being a PP otherwise it would be acceptable to say " A broke
man" which we don't!</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">best wishes</p>
<p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Heather</p>
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Worcester UK</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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