<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 15 June 2009 - Volume 04<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)</span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a></span><br>===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Marcus Buck</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org">list@marcusbuck.org</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Grammar" 2009.06.09 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">
From: Marcus Buck <<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank">list@marcusbuck.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:list@marcusbuck.org" target="_blank">list@marcusbuck.org</a>>><br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I made some further investigations in Germanic morphology and found
out, that all what I said was based on false presumptions ;-)<div class="im"><br>
There's no paradigm "imperative follows infinitive/first person". "ich
fahre", "er fährt", imperative "fahre" shows, that German too doesn't
apply a rule like that. Actually the rules depend on the Ablaut classes
for Germanic verbs. Third person and imperative only coincide for the
Ablaut classes III.b. (Old High German: infinitive 'werfan', 1st person
'wirfu' [1st person followed the same pattern as 2nd/3rd person in Old
High German], imperative 'wirf' = Modern German: infinitive 'werfen',
3rd person 'wirft', imperative 'wirf'), IV. ('neman', 'nimu', 'nim' =
'nehmen', 'nimmt', 'nimm'), and V. ('geban', 'gibu', 'gib' = 'geben',
'gibt', 'gib').<br>
At least according to <<a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudsaksisch" target="_blank">http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudsaksisch</a>>
corresponding forms existed in Old Saxon. The article mentions
infinitive 'helpan', 1st person 'hilpu', imperative 'hilp' [Ablaut
class III.b.]).<br>
Old Saxon short 'i' was sound-shifted to short 'e' in open syllables
and in front of 'r' and 'l' later, so 'nimu', 'giƀu', 'wirpu', and
'hilpu' would all coincide with the infinitive after that sound shift.
The 2nd and 3rd persons were formed with an 'i' in it (e.g. 'hilpis',
'hilpid') and where thus subject to Umlaut. So the 'i'->'e' sound
shift didn't affect them and they stay different until today.
Imperative forms 'wirp' and 'hilp' would have been subject to the
'i'->'e' sound shift too. But in closed syllables 'nim' and 'giƀ'
would lead to 'nimm' and 'giff'. They would only lead to 'nehm' and
'geev' if the syllables would have been open. It's not impossible, that
besides 'nim' and 'giƀ' based on dialect (most of our knowledge of Old
Saxon is based on documents from the southern periphery and we know few
about the northern dialects) there where different forms (e.g. 'nima'
and 'giƀa'), that would explain the modern forms of 'nehm' and 'geev'.
Another explanation would be, that the singular imperative forms were
adjusted to the plural.<br>
And in the end we are where we were right at the start: Most likely it's a matter of dialect.<br>
</div></blockquote><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
One more update: I just found a reference in H. Zahrenhusen: 'Lautstand
der Mundart von Horneburg', that in 1909 when Zahrenhusen wrote the
book, in Horneburg (which is southeast of Hamburg, about halfway
between my home and Hamburg), the imperative forms 'giff' and 'itt'
could still be heard besides the more widespread forms 'geev' un 'eet'.
Personally I only know 'geev' and 'eet' from my dialect. But it seems,
'giff' and 'itt' are the original forms and 'geev' and 'eet' are
younger forms that were created by clearing effects (but have gained
widespread use cause they are easier to memorize).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
That would mean, it's not German influence, but rather the opposite: A
Low Saxon innovation that was established although German backed the
older forms. Sounds much better to me than the "Low Saxon breaks under
German influence" story ;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">
<br>
Marcus Buck</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Grammar<br><br>Thanks a lot, Marcus! This is really interesting.<br><br>Let me just add for the benefit of our friends everywhere that today's Low Saxon imperative forms influenced those of Missingsch and Missingsch-derived northern German dialects. ("Missingsch" is a German dialect with a strong Low Saxon substratum.)Â In such varieties you say "Ess!" instead of "iss!" (eat!), "geb!" instead of "gib!" (give!), and so forth.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Sounds much better to me than the "Low Saxon breaks under
German influence" story ;-)</span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I agree.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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