<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 27 July 2009 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands@lowlands-l.net">lowlands@lowlands-l.net</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)</span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Language Codes: <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/codes.php">lowlands-l.net/codes.php</a></span><br>
===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Sandy Fleming</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language history" 2009.07.25 (02) [EN]<br><br></span><div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
From: Dan Prohaska <<a href="mailto:daniel@ryan-prohaska.com">daniel@ryan-prohaska.com</a>><br>Subject: LL-L "Language history" [EN]<br><br>
Sandy,<br><br>
You asked: “*Was the 'reet, neet, nowt' imported from Scandinavia or is it<br>
merely phonetic shift?*”<br><br>
These are English words, and they rather missed out on a phonetic shift than took part in one.<br></div>
<div style="margin-left: 40px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">.....</span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"></div>
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Thanks, Dan, that makes sense. I asked because there seems to be a
strong thread in popular Northumbrian dialect literature that these
words go right back to some Scandinavian dialect but no evidemce seems
to be presented and without that it's hard to see why it can't just be
phonetic shift.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
By the way, Ron, thanks for the wecloming. I may err on the side of
brevity for a while as I learn to use a mobile phone for large texts,
but on the other hand I can get on line almost anywhere, any time!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888"><br>
Sandy Fleming<br>
<a href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">Http://scotstext.org/</a></font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">Paul Finlow-Bates</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language history" 2009.07.24 (03) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">
<br>
</span>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Glancing quickly at a few maps, those pronunciations seem to be
roughly coincident with Scandinavian, especially Danish, place names,
so it could be.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Curious though, that the medial "ch" vanished in Southern English
as well; you'd expect it to survive either side of Danish N. England,
in for example Scotland and Somerset.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">By "Southern English" I mean traditional varieties, not the
standard Southern and Estuary types dominant today. They are
derivatives of Mediaeval East Midland dialect, which was a
Danish-influenced N-S hybrid, hence its popularity and influence.</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Derby</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Danelaw,</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
England</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Language history</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paul, Sandy, Dan,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I am not sure when the development started, but perhaps it is relevant to note that under certain conditions Modern Danish varieties do "funny things" with intervocalic and final /g/. For instance, depending on the variety it becomes a glide or "disappears" in words like </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">meget</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[ˈmɑːɪd̥] ~ [mɑːð̞̩]</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">) 'very' and </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">dag</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> ([</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">d̥æː</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">] ~ [</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">d̥̥̥aʊ̯</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">]) 'day'. Note also alternation here: </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">tag</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[ˈtˢæːˀ]</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 'roof' -> </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">tagterrasse</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[ˈtˢɑʊ̯tˢaˌʁɑsə]</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> 'roof terrace'. Note also the words for "law" in both languages:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old Norse </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">lǫg</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> > Modern Danish </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">lov</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> [lo</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">ʊ̯</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Old English </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">lagu</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> > Modern English "law" [ɫɒː] ~ [ɫɔː] ~ [ɫoː]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">If this was at least at an early stage of development it would have very well stimulated, influenced or reinforced the development in English.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">And again we need to bear in mind that written language usually does not reflect such developments in the spoken language or it does so at a later time (though neither in English nor in Danish).</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language history" 2009.07.26 (01) [EN]<br><br></span><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">1 - *
> From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span> <span><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be" target="_blank">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span><br>> Subject:
</font><font size="2">LL-L "Language
history" 2009.07.25 (03) [EN-NL]<br></font><div class="im"><font size="2">> The
<strong>first word on the line has sleeptoon (falling tone)</strong> the
</font></div><font size="2"><strong>second stoottoon (pushing tone)<br></strong><div class="im">>
bal bal
(soccer)ball dancing
event<br>>
kal kal
twaddle
wedge<br></div><div class="im">> bal (soccer) becomes <strong>bel</strong> in
plural</div></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div class="im">
<div><font size="2">> bal
(dancing event) becomes <strong>bals</strong> in plural.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">> kal
(twaddle) has no plural to my feeling</font></div>
<div><font size="2">> kal
(wedge) can <font color="#ff00ff">have both <strong>kals</strong> as
<strong>kalle</strong></font> to my feeling (cf. French "cale")</font></div>
</div><div><font size="2">** > From:
R. F. Hahn <</font><a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><font size="2">sassisch@yahoo.com</font></a><font size="2">><br>> Subject: Language
history<div class="im"><br>> Outside of plural forms, ... just speculating here ...<br>>
Is <i>bal</i> 'ball (=dance)' masculine? </div></font></div></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Definitely masculine, cf. French "le bal masqué".</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Gender in South Limburgish is very much the same as the gender
in French.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">The disturbing exception is "boter " (fem.) butter, masc. in
French: le beurre.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">As kids we always thought the French were <strong>very
very wrong</strong>.</font></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">> <i>Kal</i> 'wedge' must be related to German
<strong><i>Keil</i> </strong>and Dutch <i>keil</i>, may well be a contraction of
*<i>kail</i>.</font></div>
<div> </div>
</div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">With <strong>"cale"</strong> in French, this explains why I
would accept both plural forms.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">2 >
From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc.</span> <span><<a href="mailto:roger.thijs@euro-support.be" target="_blank">roger.thijs@euro-support.be</a>></span><br>> Subject: LL-L "Language history"
2009.07.25 (01) [EN]</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">> Stevens studied for the South of Belgian Limburg what
language elements of Cologne penetrated in that area (Limburgish Haspengouw) at
what time.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">> He
concludes that the <strong>linguistic influence of Cologne</strong> starts
<strong>dying out in the 13th century,</strong> mainly through the increased
power > ... Some examples of <strong>Ripuarian elements</strong> that
penetrated in Limburgsh Haspengouw in those early times:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">> -
<strong>bitonality</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">> -
elongation of short vowels before s, ch, f</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">> -
vocalisation of ch before t</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">> - the
deletion of t/d at the end of words after other consonnants than r and
l</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">> - the
elongation of short vowels before rs.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Supposing
Stevens is right, then we know when it stopped.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">However
<strong>we do not know when it started.</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">We cannot
estimate the influence of:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- The Germanic
presence before Caesar: cf. the "different language" the
<strong>Belgians</strong> spoke</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- The
(peaceful) Germanic migrations during the Roman empire: </font><font size="2"> <strong>Saxons, Frisians</strong> in the West, <strong>Salian
Francs</strong> in the center</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">-
These were later a bit more violently pushed to the West by the
<strong>Ripuaran Francs</strong> coming from the Cologne area</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- The
separation during about 200 years (500-700) with:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"> -
<strong>Neustria</strong> in the West (including Flanders)
(Salian?)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"> -
<strong>Austrasia</strong> in the East (including Brabant and Loon-Limburg)
(Ripuarian?)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">
<a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Neustrie752.jpg" target="_blank">http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Neustrie752.jpg</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">
<a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Austrasie752.jpg" target="_blank">http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Austrasie752.jpg</a></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">
(The borders between the two states changed from time to time)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Political
lines do not explain all though (How to explain the Romance-Germanic language
border? It does not coincide with any political border. "<strong>National
languages</strong>" were created much later as <strong>unifying
concept</strong>, or in the French Jacobine philosophy, giving all citizens
<strong>equal chances</strong> - after elimination of language
differences)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">What I find
back in literature on evolution of dialects (before 1950) is:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- spread of
language elements <strong>from market towns to surrounding
villages</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- stepwise
spread <strong>along the commercial position of the towns</strong>:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"> before
12th c: Cologne --> Maastricht --> towns in the land of
Loon --> rural villages</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"> 18th
c. Brussels/Leuven --> Hasselt --> towns in the land of Loon
--> rural villages</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">
Grootaers illustrated the phenomenon with the loss of initial h in Lonerland
towns, under influence of Brabantish.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">For my
municipalty, Vliermaal, once the judicial capital of the county of
Loon:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- the
<strong>vowel system</strong> is still Lonerlands,
<strong>West-Limburgish</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- the
<strong>vocabulary</strong> is often more inspired by the nearby market town of
Tongeren</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- the
<strong>consonants </strong>follow Tongeren, East of the Panninger line
sch--> sj, making us (uncorrectly I think) classified as
<strong>Central-Limburgish</strong></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- as for
<strong>tonality</strong> we do not follow the stronly elongated version of
Wellen in the West (well known from the jokes by the guy from
Vrolingen on the radio)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">- and we did
<strong>not </strong>follow <strong>Hasselt:</strong> e.g. we kept our initial H
(as a matter of fact we were oriented to the South; 10 miles to Tongeren e.g.
for shopping of standard clothes, and a further 15 miles to Liège e.g. for
clothes for special occasions)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">3. However in
West-Limburgish villages, <strong>every parish</strong> has its <strong>own
dialect</strong>, and these may vary very significantly over short
distances.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">I'm
participating in a DNA-anchestry project, and I have been checking for my
ancestors (till about 1650).</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Basically they
find their spouse <strong>in the very same village</strong>. This looks like
<strong>inbreeding</strong>.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Economically
it is easy to explain. Most of my ancestors were (small) farmers.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">They inherited
<strong>land from both sides</strong>. This could only work if the land of both
families was at decent distances.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Mariages often
toke place at an age around 30, when the "future" of the household was carefully
studied.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">This has been
leading to "quite <strong>close communities</strong>", developping their own
language versions.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">This
<strong>band with land</strong> was competely <strong>broken </strong>after
WWII. Immigration started. Industrialization progressed. Small farms were no
longer economically feasable. Dutch (or some form of Dutch) became the
communication langage among kids. If this process happened 100 years earlier,
French may have become the language of communication.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">4. As for the
DNA project, they started for the former <strong>Duchy of Brabant</strong>
(with male-line ancestors of the participants living in Brabant around
<strong>1700),</strong> and they got sofar for the male
haplogroups:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">R1b 59,01%<br>I1 12,08%<br>I2 8,51%<br>E1 4,95%<br>J2 4,75%<br>R1a
3,96%<br>G2
3,37%<br>J1 1,39%<br>L 0,79%<br>Q
0,59%<br>T 0,59%</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Belgian
Limburg will be done in 2010.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">I'm in R1b
myself. </font><font size="2">Most West-Europeans belong to R1b,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">So I think
the frequency of other groups is much more interesting.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Regards,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Roger</font><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
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