<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 29 September 2009 - Volume 04<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands@lowlands-l.net">lowlands@lowlands-l.net</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Language politics" 2009.09.28 (02) [EN]</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">> From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Subject: Language politics</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> Those are certainly points worth noting, Sandy, though most people</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> would play the numbers game, especially when it comes to pursuading</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> others to come on board and to communicate to politicians of a sense</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
> of urgency.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">True enough.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im"><br>
> So what you are saying then is that liturgical languages that are used<br>
> only out of specific motivation are in a certain sense dead. This<br>
<br>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">What I'm saying is that saying that Hebrew &c was "never really dead"</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
doesn't mean that much because the idea of "dead" when applied to</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
languages isn't that well defined.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Normally I would consider a language living or dead in terms of language</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
learners' attitudes and methodology.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Do learners in general aspire to achieve the pronunciation of people who</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
have spoken the language from infancy and never had to learn it</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
consciously? Then the language is living.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Or do learners in general not worry too much about pronunciation because</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
they consider their own guess to be as good as anybody's? Then the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
language is dead. At least, they're studying it as a dead language.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Thus mediaeval Latin could be considered a dead language, because</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
pronunciation varied according to what was available in the speakers'</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
living language and nobody could in good conscience say that their own</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
pronunciation was correct, the way they might have done if they had been</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
able to mix with actual Romans with a solid line of language descent.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Even though a language can be "dead and gone" and come back again, like</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Cornish, I think the language can truly become living again according to</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the above definition. Although it would be futile to pretend that the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
new pronunciation was the same as the old, there can nevertheless be a</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
new pronunciation that learners care about because it's how people who</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
are now speaking it from infancy speak it. Conversely a language can be</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
spoken all over the place by certain groups without being a living</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
language.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
I'm talking about pronunciation but you could probably make similar</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
arguments with respect to grammar, idiom and vocabulary.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
But the important thing here is that if you want to describe how things</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
are and were with the status of Hebrew and so on you need a better</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
taxonomy than just "dead or not". I was questioning the usefulness of</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
the opinion that Hebrew was "never dead". Cornish speakers often say the</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
same thing about Cornish, because the term "dead" isn't well defined for</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
languages.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="im"><br>
> As for constructed languages, Ozee Tilp is an interesting example:<br>
> <a href="http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ozee-tilp.php" target="_blank">http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ozee-tilp.php</a><br>
> There are two fluent speakers, the rest of the family as well as some<br>
> friends picking up the language over time:<br>
> <a href="http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ozee-tilp-info.php" target="_blank">http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/ozee-tilp-info.php</a><br>
<br>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I see that although there are only two speakers, it still splits into</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
two dialects!</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Language varieties</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Thanks, Sandy.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">About Ozee Tilp ...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div style="margin-left: 40px; color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I see that although there are only two speakers, it still splits into<br>
two dialects!<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">True. Or are they two idiolects? After all, no two persons speak the "same" language variety identically. So we all use idiolects, which in a way are "dialects for one". ;-)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Jonny</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span class="gI">LL-L "Language politics" 2009.09.29 (02) [DE-NDS]<br><br></span><div id=":8t" class="ii gt">
<div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Marcus
schrieb</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>vieles, mit dem ich
einverstanden bin, aber auch:</span></div><div class="im">
<div><span></span>Â </div>
<div><span><font face="Arial">Jüst lüttje un faken bruukt
Wöör ännert sik faken. Plattdüütsch hett "oder" för hoochdüütsch "oder". Dat
Woord gellt överall. Blot de Dialekten in de Nedderlannen un an de
nedderlandsche Grenz hebbt "of" (jüstso as Nedderlandsch). Wenn wi trüchkiekt,
denn harr Plattdüütsch fröher en ganz Reeg Formen ("edder", "eller", "efte",
...) de all utstorven sünd un för de hoochdüütsche Form Platz maakt
hebbt.</font></span></div>
<div><span></span>Â </div>
</div><div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>So lange ICH noch
lebe und sprechen kann, ist "edder(s)", "eller(s)" mitnichten ausgestorben ;-)
-Â man muss nur die Disziplin aufbringen, es auch zu nutzen. Mit anderen
Worten - es gehört definitiv noch zum aktiven Wortschatz des heutigen
Platt.</span></div>
<div><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span> Bi ... "obwohl"
liggt dat wohrschienlich an Lüüd, de Platt snacken wüllt, aver sik de Sätz in'n
Geist hoochdüütsch trechmaakt. De Gedanken laat sik ahn Problem ok Plattdüütsch
utdrücken.</span></div>
<div><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Ist das
gebräuchliche "obschounst", "ofschounst" für HD "obwohl" kein Platt? Könnte in
der Tat so sein, aber klingt wenigstens nicht sooo... Hochdeutsch
;-).</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Ein anders Beispiel
ist "<strong>âns</strong>" - kaum jemand kann noch damit umgehen,
weder</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>- in der
Bedeutung des subjunktiven "wenn": "<strong>Āns</strong> du mii ne'
helpst, help ikk Dii ouk 'ne."</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>- noch in der
Bedeutung des adverbialen "sonst": "Eeet fein Diin’n Teller leddig,
<strong>âns</strong> kriigt wii monnen Regen!"</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>Ist aber auch
vertrackt, vor allem hier: "<strong>Ä€ns </strong>Du nich Diin'n Groynkohl
frittst', <strong>âns</strong> Du ouk keen Kümmel krisst'!" (Wandspruch in
einem Esslokal im Oldenburger Land)</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span>(BTW, Marcus -
Deine Beiträge sind auf Grund ihrer 'Optik' für mich äußerst mühselig zu lesen,
weil Du das Wort "Absatz" anscheinend auch im Hochdeutschen nicht kennst
;-)!)</span></div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span></span>Â </div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Â Allerbest!</div>
<div style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" align="left">Â </div><font style="font-family: courier new,monospace;" color="#888888">
<div align="left">Jonny Meibohm</div>
<div align="left">Lower Saxony,
Germany</div></font></div>
</div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
----------<br><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: Language varieties</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ja, ja, de lütten Wöör ... Wenn se jüm ähr hoochdüütschen Gägenstücken nich liek sünd, denn kinnt de mehrsten Tweedspraakler jüm nich, bruukt hoogdüütsche Wöör un bringt jüm annere Minschen bi. Kann wäsen, se meent, för lütte Wöör bruukst nich in Wööböker naslagen.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ofschoonst => obwohl</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">liekers => dennoch</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">mehrst => meist</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">mehrsttieds, mehrsdeels => meistens</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">wo, woans, wodennig => wie</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">waar, wonäven, wonääm => wo</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">baven => oben</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">meist => fast</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Un dat gifft noch vääl mehr vun düssen Kraam.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">För "ans" geiht ook "anners", un daar kümmt dat je ook vun af.</span><br><br>"S<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">üst" f</span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">ör <i>sonst</i> kannst man bloots in'n Sinn vun "</span>Wat hebbt ji <b>s<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">üst</span> </b>noch?". Anners (!) seggt 'n "Maak dat Finster dicht! <b>Anners </b>(~ <b>ans</b>) kaamt de M<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">üggen rin."</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Grötens,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Seattle, USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
•
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