<div style="text-align: center; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 10 October 2009 - Volume 01<br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);"><a href="mailto:lowlands@lowlands-l.net">lowlands@lowlands-l.net</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a></span><br style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">
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===========================================<br></div><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(200, 137, 0);">Diederik Masure</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:didimasure@hotmail.com">didimasure@hotmail.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span class="gI"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "Gender" 2009.10.10 (02) [NL]<br>
<br>
</span></span>Jaqueline: <br>
Online Vandale says: <br>
<span><strong><font color="#ff8000" size="3">d<span><u>e</u></span>k·sel </font></strong></span><em><span>het, de; </span><span>o en m -s </span></em>dat deel ve hol voorwerp dat dit van boven sluit<br>
so both het and de seem correct. For me it is exclusively "het deksel",
as other -sel words derived from verbs like "het hengsel", "het
zaagsel" enz. <br>
(although in Antwerp the traditional word is "scheel" vr. < schedel (skull)) <br>
<br>
In my years in Amsterdam I noticed most Dutch people correct me when I
say "het deksel" and claim it has to be "de deksel", so I thought
masculine was the only officially allowed gender as that's the only
thing I heard from my Dutch friends. <br>
<br>
As to oproer, I can't figure out right now what would be most natural
to say (haven't ever used that word outside written language I think),
but feminine would be my first guess. <br>
The masculine in German seems to me most original, as most simple
derivations of verb stems (without suffixes) are masuline in the
germanic languages I think. <br>
<font color="#888888">
<br>
Diederik</font><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br>----------<br><br>From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Theo Homan</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:theohoman@yahoo.com">theohoman@yahoo.com</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI">LL-L "Gender" 2009.10.10 (02) [NL]<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Hi,</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Mij is bekend dat lidwoorden mensen danig kunnen verwarren.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
En ik vermoed omdat dit -in de opvoeding en op school- nooit zoveel aandacht had als andere 'taalfouten' of 'versprekingen'.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Naast alle mogelijke mogelijkheden [analogie, dialect, sociolect,
buitenlands] speelde ook de bijbeltaal een rol; tot aan de 60er jaren
kon men vaak aan iemands woordgebruik [ bijv. gebruik van voorzetsels
en sommige lidwoorden] afleiden of iemand uit een katholieke of
protestantse streek kwam. Hierbij de aantekening dat deze gebieden
sterk overlapten met saksische en frankische gebieden.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
In Duitsland is het voor mensen nogal eens een hersenpijniger dat een
algemeen woord als Stolle / kerstbrood in hun streek der is, maar
elders weer die; of andersom. En dan zitten ze elkaar maar te
verbeteren...</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
vr. gr.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" color="#888888">Theo Homan</font><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="gI"><span class="gD" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148);">M.-L. Lessing</span> <span class="go"><<a href="mailto:marless@gmx.de">marless@gmx.de</a>></span></span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
Subject: </span><span class="gI"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">LL-L "Gender" 2009.10.10 (02) [NL]</span><br>
<br>
</span><div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">Hallo Ihr Lieben, </font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">ich antworte mal auf Deutsch. Zu "dem
Deckel" fällt mir spontan "die Decke" ein. Nur das l am Ende macht ein
männliches Wort daraus -- hat diese enge Nachbarschaft zu der
Geschlechtsumwandlung geführt?</font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">Schwieriger ist es mit dem Aufruhr.
Gäbe es ein Gegenteil namens "Abruhr", so wäre ich fast sicher, dass es
weiblich</font> <font size="4">wäre! Dieser Verdacht
drängt sich mir auf durch die merkwürdigen Zwitterkapazitäten der Endung -mut.
Der Mut (= Courage) ist natürlich männlich, aber sobald "Mut" die
Bedeutungsfärbung "Stimmung" annimmt, ist es damit vorbei. Der Hochmut ist noch
männlich, die Demut aber weiblich, und was mit dem/der Gleichmut ist, weiß ich
selbst nicht so genau. Unmut ist männlich, Anmut weiblich. (Klingt nach Klischee
:-)) Edelmut ist wieder männlich, Großmut und Sanftmut weiblich. Wer soll sich
da noch auskennen?! Und woher kommt das, weiß das jemand?</font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">Hartlich!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,serif;"><font size="4">Marlou</font></div><br><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">-----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></span></p>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Subject: Gender<br><br>Those are excellent points, Marlou, especially about those German words with <i>-mut</i> (which I assume is related to English "mood" and as a nominalizing "suffix" after adjectives forms words </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">expressing various attitudes.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">So let me recap for the benefit of all:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">German: </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">muot</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (mood, attitude, mind) > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Mut</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (courage)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Low Saxon: mōd (mood, attitude, mind) > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Mood</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> (mood, attitude, mind, courage)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">All of them are masculine.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">arrogance, haughtiness:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">German: Hochmut (m) (< high)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Low Saxon: Hoogmood (m) (< high)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
equanimity, stoicism:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
German: Gleichmut (m) (< equal)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">nobleness, gallantry, generosity:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">German: Edelmut (m) (< noble)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">humility:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">German: Demut (f)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">grace, charm, comeliness:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">German: Anmut (f)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">magnanimity, generosity:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">German: Großmut (f) (< great)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">gentleness, sweet temper:</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">German: Sanftmut (f) (< soft, gentle)</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Low Saxon used to have cognates of all or most of these but now uses their adjectival forms (</span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Mood</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> > </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">-mödig</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">) followed by German-influenced abstract nominalizing </span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(-<i>keed </i>>) </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">-keit</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">; e.g. </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Sachtmödigkeit</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> where German has </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Sanftmut</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">. This </span><i style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">-keit</i><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> renders all nouns feminine.</span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>Seattle, USA<br>
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