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<div style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">===========================================<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 12 October 2009 - Volume 04<br></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#999999"><a href="mailto:lowlands@lowlands-l.net">lowlands@lowlands-l.net</a> - <a href="http://lowlands-l.net/">http://lowlands-l.net/</a><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">From: Brooks, Mark <<a href="mailto:mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us">mark.brooks@twc.state.tx.us</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.10.12 (03) [EN]<br><br>Yes, Ron and Sandy, an interesting idea.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Let me go on to argue with myself for a moment ;-).<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Let’s take the case of the Romance languages.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>We could say that they descended from the language spoken in the Roman Empire.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>That language evolved into many different ones, but for the sake of my example, let’s look at the major Western Romance languages and one of the Eastern ones.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Italian seems to fit into both in some ways, but for the purpose of my argument, let’s put it in the Western group.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">As far as I can tell Spanish, French, Catalan, Portuguese, et al. lost the case endings on nouns.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>At least let’s say that in a general sense.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>But, Romanian has retained some up until today.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Now, Romanian surely had as much (or even more) contact with other languages as the Western group.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>In fact, I believe Rome withdrew from Dacia (present day Romania more or less) even earlier than it did from the Western provinces.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>So, what would explain that?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Of course, each language has its own characteristics just like people do, but assuming that the tendency to analytic structure applies universally, it seems to have somewhat by-passed Romanian.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">True, Romanian has lost some of the cases and might still have the “analytic” change going on, but I wonder about the difference.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Mark Brooks<br><br>----------<br><br>From: Sandy Fleming <<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>><br>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.10.12 (03) [EN]<br><br>> From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> Subject: Language varieties</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> This is an interesting idea, Sandy, and not an implausible one either,</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> in my opinion.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> If this is what has been happening, it might explain divergence of</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> language groups in the form of “families” that we perceive as being</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> unrelated with each other. Oftentimes, these families have features</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> that seem “suspiciously” similar on some deeper level or other, for</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> instance the Uralic, Altaic and Indo-European language families. But</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> then the “evidence” peters out and genetic relationships between them</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">> seem impossible to prove.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I think that recent advances in sign language linguistics can be</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">enlightening in this respect.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">For one thing, it's been demonstrated that sign languages will arise</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">spontaneously where there's a need and no other sign language available.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So there needn't be any _linguistic_ reason why different language</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">families should actually be related. But while it isn't hard to imagine</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">several Deaf people being born into a community with no sign language</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">(in fact we know it happens), it is a bit harder to see how a</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">representative group of humans in the past would come to be isolated</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">without any oral language (and so develop a brand new oral language),</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">unless migrations took place before the development of languages as we</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">know it. Could such language families reflect very early migrations?</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Another aspect is that while sign languages share many more universals</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">than oral languages, some universals are found to be shared between oral</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">and signed languages.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">For example, there is a tendency for phonetic features to spread</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">backwards in oral languages, eg "can go" and "can be" getting pronounced</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">more like "cang go" and "cam be" in English. This tendency also occurs</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">in sign languages, for example in BSL "blood" is signed as a compound</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">sign "red-flow". Although the signs for "red" and "flow" use two</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">different handshapes, "red" is often seen signed with the same handshape</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">as is used for "flow" in this compound: one of the features of the</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">second sign spreads backwards into the first.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This seems to show that just because two very different and possibly</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">unrelated languages show various suspiciously similar features doesn't</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">mean that they're _historically_ related: there are things that happen</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">across languages not because the languages are related, but because the</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">same cognitive system (the human brain) is behind them.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I don't know if this just me teaching my grandmother to suck eggs or</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">not!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>:)</font></span></p></div>
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